Tagged: Ben Braden, harbaugh, ondre pipkins
Lanknows.
LanknowsLot of debate last offseason about Ondre Pipkins being removed from the Michigan football team against his will. Amounts to he said/she said between the program and Pipkins. While we don’t know what risk was or wasn’t taken on Ondre’s part, his production speaks for itself.
Pipkins, who transferred to Texas Tech from Michigan before the 2015 season, started in 11 games for Tech last season with the lone exception coming in the season finale against Baylor. He led the interior defensive linemen with 32 tackles and ranked eighth overall on the team for tackles.
Pipkins is now set to begin his professional career after being signed by the Washington Redskins (as a UDFA).
Interesting to compare with the Ben Braden situation, who dealt with a lower back injury last offseason. Braden’s injury appears to be serious enough to prevent him from being drafted (at least according to rumors Thunder shared).
GKblueLank this just proves to me we don’t have all the facts when we attempt to divine the truth in these situations.
I know I never anticipated Braden would be in this situation with regard to the NFL. I liked Pipkins as a recruit, but over time I (probably unfairly) began to question his commitment, and wondered if that’s what made his injuries of a retire-able quantity in the eyes of our new coaches.
I know one thing everybody is pulling for Grant Newsome especially because of his great character and commitment, beyond what he offers as a LT.
It would be a tragedy if he comes back too soon or otherwise severely re-injures his leg. I think Harbaugh will give him all the encouragement and incentive to get back to as close to normal as he can. And just as importantly he and the doctors will give Grant and his family good advice should it be not in his best interest to continue competing.
LanknowsI think Newsome is a case where what is best for the individual is also best for the team. A red-shirt year for recovery is highly likely and pretty clearly in Newsome’s best interest. From the program side, given his talent and potential as a player, it is great if Newsome can return in 2018 with more strength, maturity, leadership and still have sophomore eligibility.
Pipkins offers a different example, where what is best for the player is not what is best for the team. As you said, we don’t have all the information, but to argue Michigan’s perspective you have to look past their self-interest and assume Pipkins was being reckless with his own health.
The fact that he played an entire season at another school and is signed to play for an NFL team indicates the argument that his football career was over due to medical issues was not truthful.
ThunderI don’t think Michigan said his career was over due to injuries. They said his injuries were significant enough that he couldn’t play for them. It happens frequently where doctors differ in opinion. How many times do NFL and MLB trades get vetoed because a guy didn’t pass his physical for a new team? It’s not an everyday occurrence, but it’s also not rare. It’s entirely possible that Michigan’s doctors weren’t comfortable with Pipkins’s health, but Texas Tech’s were. It’s also entirely possible that Michigan’s doctors were okay with Ben Braden continuing his career, but NFL doctors weren’t.
LanknowsA medical exemption is given to an athlete who suffers an injury or illness that ends their career. That’s what happened with Dukes and Dawson and that’s what was offered to Pipkins.
Back when Mgoblog was against these practices (total coincidence that this was before Michigan started doing them) they wrote up the issue thusly:
The issue with the SEC and Saban and Oversigning is they are forcing kids who with injuries but NOT career ending injuries to take medical EXEMPTIONS (not RS). Saban is ending these kids’ college careers, but still paying their tuition. Essentially he is kicking kids off the team, but sending them on their way with a scholarship… they just are off the football team and can’t play NCAA sports ever again. If you look at the graph below, either Bama had 12x the career ending injuries of every other SEC team, or he’s abusing the system.
http://mgoblog.com/diaries/medical-redshirt-vs-medical-exemption-overview
That link says the average is 1 per school. Michigan had at least 2 that summer and tried for at least a third with Pipkins.
LanknowsIt is possible the scenario you outlined was reality and it is possible an alternate scenario was the reality.
I don’t dispute that a year off could have or was helpful for Pipkins but it’s clear that his career was not over.
He was pushed into something he did not want to do. Given his relative success and health, the evidence indicates he was right. He’s pursuing a career as a professional which he would not been able to do had he stayed at Michigan.
Again, we don’t have all the facts — but we do have some significant evidence.
ThunderYou don’t really have evidence. You have a theory. The numbers occurring at schools in the SEC are somewhat irrelevant to Pipkins’s case itself.
There is also evidence in the opposite direction, such as the shortage of nose tackles that year, his recruiting profile, the other schools who thought he was talented enough for a scholarship, the fact that he is apparently a good enough player to make it to the NFL, the fact that Michigan was forced to put an inconsequential walk-on on scholarship (Dan Liesman), etc.
LanknowsPipkins made a claim. He said he was healthy enough to play and he has been. This is not some theory I concocted or a guess. It is a reaction to something a player explicitly said.
It is exactly the same as what Michigan fans criticized Alabama for – with the same issues of plausible deniability in individual cases vs. probability in numbers. The difference is that Pipkins made the claim. Michigan fans are making the exact same arguments Alabama fans made. This was all above board and if not well that’s football.
Pipkins position on the depth chart is an opinion – but my opinions on the matter are consistent with yours and the consensus. Pipkins was behind 3 guys who either got drafted or are projected to: Glasgow, Mone, Hurst. He was, at best, the 6th interior DLmen on the team. A team where Taco Charlton and Mo Hurst struggled to earn snaps, even after Bryan Mone was out for the year.
You’re twisting the facts here and it undermines your argument. When you talk about the injury-ravaged depth chart 6 months after Pipkins left, Michigan being ‘forced’ to give a walk-on a scholarship, and High School recruiting rankings it’s grasping at straws. Very weak straws, I might add.
Pipkins wasn’t expected to play and everyone knows it. You said it yourself.
The only thing we don’t know about is the medical staff. Either:
a) they were legitimately right about Pipkins career being over and Pipkins is taking a dangerous risk by playing OR
b) they were legitimately wrong about his career being over OR
c) they were coerced into having that opinion to open up a scholarship.
LanknowsIt was a he said/she said at the time. Now we have a little more information that points to Pipkins being validated.
I know you don’t agree with me (that it’s suspicious) but undermining my argument as “a theory” is cheap and inaccurate.
There are concerns about players and recruits being cut from the football program at several levels – in a way that wasn’t there before Harbaugh. This kind of stuff can come back to haunt you in the press and some of it already has.
Painter SmurfThanks for the update. Glad it worked out for Pipkins and he was able to stay healthy and earn PT. His usage at UM would have been much lower.
Not surprised JH medical’d him. Im not sure if Pipkins was fully cleared for a single spring practice in three years at UM.
ThunderI don’t think there’s any real reason to question Harbaugh’s handling of the situation with Pipkins. He was a formerly highly rated recruit who some (not me, really, but some) thought had played well during his first couple years on campus. Michigan had some depth issues in 2015 when Pipkins was sitting out, but Harbaugh still didn’t have room for him. We could have used an extra NT since Mone’s injury was trouble, and Glasgow’s injury even more so.
If Pipkins was lucky enough not to get injured in his time at Texas Tech, that’s great.
LanknowsPipkins was let go well before any depth issues were apparent. He left in June. Mone got hurt in Fall camp. The rest of the injuries struck during the season.
Michigan had extraordinarily good DL depth at the time of the decision. Pipkins was not expected to be a significant contributor as he would have been a backup to Glasgow, Mone, and Hurst at NT or Henry and Godin at DT. Not to mention younger players.
According to the TTB 2015 Season Countdown: “The nose tackle position seems to be in good hands, but those good hands do not seem to belong to Pipkins.” Pipkins ranked #66 in that countdown, between a 225 freshman DE and walk-on WR who caught 1 pass in his career. Neither played in 2015, which was seemed the likely path for Pipkins as well.
The injuries that piled up on the interior DL were unfortunate, unlikely, and unforeseeable. Before them, Pipkins was not a useful contributor. As a senior, that made him expendable.
je93I’m with GKBlue on Pipkens. I wish him well, but considering injuries and (perceived) lack of commitment, I can see why the coaches would lean toward medical… Newsome, OTOH, quickly earned a reputation as a worker, and despite an ugly injury has the full backing of the staff and resources of the Athletic Department and University
LanknowsI think we all can see why the team would want Pipkins gone. Scholarships are scarce. He was a Hoke recruit with 1 year left and didn’t look like he was going to play. There was no real benefit to keeping him around (other than insurance) and given off-field speculation it didn’t seem like he was going to be locker room asset if he wasn’t playing.
What Harbaugh did was entirely logical.
The question is if it was wrong or even unethical.
LanknowsThe idea of coaches making a decision about ‘a medical’ is exactly the point.
Michigan has prided itself on being objective, independent, scientific and evidence-based in matters of student health. The coaching staff shouldn’t be involved in theory. (See the write-up of the Shane Morris fiasco in Endzone by John Bacon).
Of course we don’t have all the facts here. But the circumstantial evidence around situations like Newsome and Braden and Canteen and Pipkins indicates that on-field production is playing a big role in these decisions.
ThunderYou can never have too many defensive tackles, so I think saying “He was expendable because Michigan had two nose tackles” is a little bit dismissive. Those guys are banging inside frequently, and it’s not uncommon at all for them to get hurt – whether it’s a shoulder, a pec, an ankle, a knee, etc.
As for opening up scholarships, Michigan gave a scholarship to walk-on Dan Liesman in 2015. I don’t think much more needs to be said on that angle. Nobody in the country wants someone with Dan Liesman’s size/athletic potential over someone with Ondre Pipkins’s size/athletic potential, unless there’s an underlying issue.
As for Pipkins’s health, he supposedly had a torn ACL and at least two concussions during his college career. And when you have a torn ACL as a 320-pound dude, it’s tough to recover. Bryan Mone took a long time to recover from his broken leg, and broken bones are supposed to be easier to overcome than ligament injuries.
LanknowsMichigan had 3 guys to rotate at NT and other younger players to develop on top of it. Your depiction of the situation at the time was accurate. I am not sure why you are revising it now.
The scholarship was rumored to be intended for grad transfer options. Michigan took 2 (that I remember): Rudock and Lyons.
Samulson, Norfleet and Tulley-Tillman left after Pipkins. The argument that this was a Pipkins for Leisman swap is disingenuous. If anything Leisman took Tuley-Tilman’s scholarship after he was unexpectedly dismissed in September. Obviously these things aren’t usually one for one but Pipkins’ scholarship probably went to somebody like Kerridge or Allen. Rewarding walk-ons has significant value to the program.
Bottomline there was still roster uncertainty at the time Pipkins was let go — that scholarship was more valuable to the team than Pipkins’ anticipated contribution.
ThunderI’m not revising anything now. I’m saying you act like Pipkins signing with an NFL team is a smoking gun that Harbaugh was just cutting people for no reason, and it’s not a smoking gun. There’s plenty of evidence for an argument in the opposite direction. You’ve been beating the drum for a year or two now that Harbaugh axed Pipkins immorally, and it’s really nothing but a random guess.
LeeRHe’d had two concussions at UM and various other injuries, including major knee injury. I’m fine with the notion that the UM medical staff thought he should stay off the field.
If TT felt otherwise –fine, I guess. You might not get your answer for another 25 – 30 years.
Lanknowsor maybe ever. Even if he blows a knee or gets a brain injury that might not necessarily have been prevented had he not had whatever he had through his time at Michigan.
I don’t dispute there is ambiguity.
There is probably a line you don’t cross, but in general I think you have to leave it up to the individual to make their own choices. Pipkins wanted to play, Michigan didn’t let him, so he did it elsewhere and now an NFL team is giving him the chance.