Jim Harbaugh and other coaches reported somewhat of a depth chart earlier this week, with some interesting tidbits. Obviously, there are some injuries that are probably affecting this, so don’t shoot the messenger.
NOTE: Players listed are in order, unless a “/” exists, which indicates an unresolved competition.
QB: Shea Patterson, Dylan McCaffrey, Joe Milton
RB: Ben VanSumeren (not starting)
FB: Ben Mason
TE: Sean McKeon, Nick Eubanks, Mustapha Muhammad
Anchor: Aidan Hutchinson
LT: Jon Runyan Jr., Greg Robinson
LG: Ben Bredeson, Chuck Filiaga
C: Cesar Ruiz, Stephen Spanellis
RG: Michael Onwenu, Joel Honigford
RT: Andrew Stueber/Jalen Mayfield
DT: Donovan Jeter
NT: Carlo Kemp, Mazi Smith
WDE: Kwity Paye, Luiji Vilain
Viper: Khaleke Hudson, Jordan Glasgow
MIKE: Josh Ross/Jordan Anthony, Jordan Glasgow
WILL: Devin Gil/Cam McGrone, Jordan Glasgow
SAM: Josh Uche
LCB: Vincent Gray
RCB: Ambry Thomas
FS: Josh Metellus
SS: J’Marick Woods
Nickel: Brad Hawkins
PR: Ronnie Bell, Mike Sainristil, Oliver Martin, Michael Barrett
KR: Ronnie Bell, Ambry Thomas, Michael Barrett, Mike Sainristil
K: Quinn Nordin/Jake Moody
P: Will Hart
LS: Camaron Cheeseman, unnamed grad transfer
What are the biggest surprises? Other thoughts?
You need to login in order to vote
Good rundown. Some eye of the beholder stuff in how the information was presented, but interesting nonetheless.
Arguably the most interesting development is at DT. A skeptic can argue it’s a red flag to see a junior who hasn’t contributed much to-date starting, backed by converted full-back/RB. An optimist can take it as a good sign that a highly rated talent with prototypical size is stepping up in the void created by departures and injuries.
Mason’s not going to play a big role unless he brings something to the table. Could be a factor in pass rush. What is a RB/Tight-End hybrid? haha. A: Ben Mason, I guess. I imagine an H-back though.
I know some will think Kemp is too small for NT but I like his fit there. Michigan has a history of using pluggers inside. Dwumfour will get into the mix when he’s back. Hutchinson/Paye will supplement on passing downs.
Is Glasgow the backup SAM?
Woods ahead of Hawkins and others is interesting too. I like his potential. Is he a FS or SS? I assume Woods will be the deep safety (due to ability to cover a lot of ground, and assuming Kinnel is the one getting replaced) but maybe it doesn’t matter since they have to flip so often.
Sainstril was called out as a starter, presumably at slot WR. A few of the other freshman haven’t arrived yet but it’s interesting that he’s ahead of people like Bell and Martin.
You need to login in order to vote
Notable things not heard:
Something about RBs that aren’t moving from FB,
More hype for Eubanks
Something about Danna
Somebody blowing people away at RT,
Something about Myles Sims
May not mean much but if it holds through spring, concern may be warranted.
You need to login in order to vote
Just a thought on Mason — having his intensity in the mix on DL, even just at practice, should be a good thing. Enthusiasm is contagious.
You need to login in order to vote
Agreed. Sometimes a guy like is great to be around. I think Chase Winovich brought an edge to the defensive line that wasn’t really there otherwise over the past couple years. Rashan Gary was a good player, but there wasn’t a ton of emotion or excitement with him. The other guy full of get-up-and-go was Maurice Hurst, Jr.
You need to login in order to vote
Wino will be missed. Such a fun player to watch. Relentless. Loved seeing him evolve from a middling LB prospect to a positional vagabond to an elite athlete off the edge. The guys who stick it out for 5 years and deal with some bumps in the road always deserve extra appreciation.
Wasn’t popular with teammates and if there was ever a M player who you wondered about having an ‘enhanced’ training regime it’s him, but from the TV or the stands he was one of the best to watch.
Will be rooting for him in the NFL. Sounds like he has an excellent chance of doing well. This stands out:
https://twitter.com/PFF_Mike/status/1112714292489609216
You need to login in order to vote
You’ve said several times that he wasn’t popular with his teammates, and you say it like it’s fact. AFAIK, that’s just your opinion based on some weird observations if you tilt your head a certain way.
I also don’t think he was on ‘roids.
You need to login in order to vote
Weird? If you say so. Wino whined to the media about not being named captain due to a ‘popularity contest’. Other bits are less obvious or not public but they’re around. Doesn’t really matter anymore.
I have no real reason to think Wino broke any rules. I’m just saying if there was a Michigan guy who ‘goes the extra mile’, I’d put him at the top.
You need to login in order to vote
I believe Warriner said Ryan Hayes is the 4th Tackle, though I believe whoever loses the RT battle will be first in
Our DL is in trouble-that lineup is thin…
With that, the loss of Devin Bush will be even more obvious than the Bowl game, and our Secondary may have to rely on a TrueFrosh at Safety. We’ll definitely need the Offense to put up points this year. Hopefully Gattis can work some magic
You need to login in order to vote
[…] I posted a rundown of Jim Harbaugh’s depth chart (LINK). […]
You need to login in order to vote
It looks like Mike Sainristil has taken what was thought to be Ronnie Bell’s job, slot.
On a similar note, it didn’t seem that Ronnie Bell’s return work last year was an indicator that he’d have the full time job this year. I have doubts about it being written in stone he really will be the kick/punt returner. August is still a long way off. Things can, and have changed, from projections made in April.
But who knows.
You need to login in order to vote
A decent number of good players, but no great players, and most position groups look to have taken a step back from last year, with the possible exception of OL. Maybe WR, if everyone manages to stay healthy and they are actually used to their potential.
This is 9-3 talent. Again.
You need to login in order to vote
a) There are lots of players missing.
b) I think the “most positions groups look to have taken a step back” is a myopic point of view, which is not surprising, considering the source. Michigan really isn’t losing much in the way of numbers this off-season. It’s losing some impact guys (Bush, Gary, Winovich, Long, Gentry, etc.), but we return 9 starters on offense (no Higdon or Gentry) and 4 on defense (Hudson, Gil, Hill, Metellus). That’s not to mention other guys who played a ton but didn’t necessarily start (Paye, Uche, Hawkins, Ross, etc.). When you’re returning 13 starters (over 50%), it’s hard to agree that more than 50% of the position groups are going to take a step back. It also doesn’t take into account that other position groups figure to be improved (QB, OL, WR, etc.).
You need to login in order to vote
I think those three positions will improve, hopefully by a lot
Every other group though, I see taking a step back, either by talent (Win/Gary combo, Long), depth (D/RB), or experience (DB)
9-3 seems about right for spring, maybe 10-2 after Fall hype settles
You need to login in order to vote
I did in fact say explicitly that OL would probably be better, and possibly WR. RB does not look as good as last year. Neither does TE. QB will be about the same. Patterson will be “fine”, as they say. Nothing much to complain about, but nothing much to get excited about, either. He will have his nice, comfortable 17-26, 224 yds, 2 TD 0 INT games, but will continue not to be a difference maker in games that matter. A better backup QB makes no impact unless your starter goes down.
Every position group on defense has less to work with than last year. We’re not great anywhere.
You need to login in order to vote
“Possibly WR”
Guys were hurt last year and the only rotation WR gone is Grant Perry.
The first freshman out of a large (in quantity) WR class has immediately passed fringe contributors like Bell and Martin.
There’s no reason not to expect the WR position to be better. That’s even without one of the best WR coaches in the country coming into the program.
You need to login in order to vote
Guys are hurt this year too. And if you read, I said that group would be better if everyone was healthy and they were used to their full potential, something that has yet to happen.
New coach, new scheme and spring practice hype are just other forms of finger-crossing. Not remotely the same as proven production on the field against quality opposition.
You need to login in order to vote
They don’t need to all be healthy to be better because they weren’t healthy last year and lost no one.
Ditto for the other qualifier. Unless you mean they WERE used to their full potential last year. Which you don’t because you’re you.
When it comes to WR, Gattis has proven production.
You need to login in order to vote
Tim Drevno says hi too.
You need to login in order to vote
“This is 9-3 talent.”
Oh the tragedy!
I guess returning a top 10 caliber team is a cross we all must bear.
Better: QB, OL, WR, TE, ST, DB
Worse: DL, LB, RB
There’s only one big worry about this roster – the DL – where Michigan only has two guys who earned all-conference honors as backups, a high performing grad transfer, a half-dozen plus top rated recruits, and a DC with an unrivaled track-record of generating pressure.
You want star players? Patterson, DPJ, Hudson, Paye, Uche, Hill…
You need to login in order to vote
Some might disagree about TE because Gentry was tall.
He’ll be replaced without issue.
Between the position getting de-emphasized in the new scheme (stronger OL, more slot WR) and McKeon/Eubanks advancing, the TE position will be more effective overall in 2019.
You need to login in order to vote
LOL. Gentry averaged 17.8 and 16.1 yards per catch over the past two seasons on 49 receptions. On about the same number of receptions (47 in three years), Sean McKeon has averaged 9.2. The production might be replicated in the offense somehow (big-play WR, RPOs, etc.), but you consistently downplay Gentry’s role in the offense. On an average of about 25 catches a season, we’re talking about 175-ish extra yards created by Gentry over McKeon.
You need to login in order to vote
More to it than ypc. Myopic to assert otherwise. LOL at that logic.
You need to login in order to vote
Can’t fathom how you’re predicting that out DBs will be better than last year. Our CB depth chart last year was Hill, Long, Watson, Thomas and St. Juste. We have two of those guys back, and no one else wth any real game experience. Wood, Kelly-Powell and Hawkins are journeymen, placeholders. Metellus is what he is. Expecting big (or any) improvement there is just finger-crossing.
And star players? Those guys are all good, occasionally very good, but not great. How many of them made a difference against OSU or in the bowl game?
You need to login in order to vote
Returning players get better.
You need to login in order to vote
The more “nuanced” point of view would be that sometimes they do, and sometimes they don’t. And sometimes when they do, it isn’t enough to make a difference. There is abundant evidence to support that position. Wouldn’t you agree?
You need to login in order to vote
The vast majority get better.
You need to login in order to vote
Maurice Ways says hi
You need to login in order to vote
The guy that transferred and became a starter at Cal… That’s the best you got?
Seems like he got better to me.
I think you’re confusing people’s expectations with reality.
You need to login in order to vote
Ways returned here multiple years and never got better. QED.
But since you asked, Ian Bunting, Ty Wheatley Jr, Ty Isaac, Brandon Peters, Freddy Canteen, also spring to mind easily. Among many others. I can go all night, dude.
You need to login in order to vote
Those are better examples. They are also exceptions.
I acknowledge improvement isn’t a given. But it is an expectation.
You need to login in order to vote
Your examples are mostly a function of expectations, not reality. They are not successful players but they easily could have, and likely did, get better.
Peters is not a good enough player to judge improvement. He Red-shirted and then got thrown into action with depleted depth his second year, then went back to the deep bench his junior year. The only visible change is the guys ahead of him.
Isaac’s production went up every year. It was pretty minor uptick but again, expectations. There’s a few holdouts but most people acknowledge he isn’t very good. Period.
Bunting went from a RS to a productive backup. Improved.
Canteen and Wheatley also transferred so we don’t have much sense for their improvement.
Wheatley is the one compelling example you listed, since he was a legitimate contributor his freshman year. The others are just guys who aren’t very good.
A more compelling example is somebody like Grant Perry or maybe Mason Cole. Contributed all 4 years but not much evidence they got better.
You need to login in order to vote
I don’t think we’ll be better at DB. At best we’ll be the same. We lost Long, Watson, and Kinnel, basically three starters. And there’s no indication that Gray, Woods, and Thomas will be on par with those guys, let alone better.
You need to login in order to vote
Somehow, Lank has convinced himself that we’ll be superior to last year at DB. Dying to see how he spins that.
You need to login in order to vote
What, how are TE better? We lost the only productive one we had. The best compliments to have leaked are about a TrFr who “wants it” & the hyperbolic statement that McKeon is elite…
We just lost a lockdown Corner, and the other is injured/missing his 3d straight spring. We lost a Captain & our most experienced safety – how did the secondary get better?
SpTms? How so? None of us will know anything about that until game day
And who on our DL are the two guys that received all-B1G? Chase & Gary are gone; Mone was HM, and is gone. If you’re going with HM, Uche is a Sam, who occasionally puts his hand down… that leaves Paye. A dangerously thin DL is returning a single HM guy, who benefited from a much more deep & talented Defense last year (evidenced by the Bowl, even said talent & depth lessened)
You need to login in order to vote
https://mobile.twitter.com/SamWebb77/status/1113462367776538625?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
You need to login in order to vote
That’s not good news.
You need to login in order to vote
Why will DB be better?
1. 3 of 6 rotation players return – 1 year older and almost certainly better as a whole: Hill, Metellus, Hudson
2. Thomas (JR) will replace Long (JR)
Yes Long was more proven heading into 2018 than Thomas is now. Yes Long was an elite performer. Thomas has the necessary ingredients (talent, experience, buzz) to replace his production. Zordich has a proven track-record in developing and replacing star CBs. Thomas is next.
3. Kinnel and Watson experince will be offset by superior talent. There will be no dropoff in season-defining situations.
I defend vets like this all the time (see about every 5th year contributor’s countdown post in the last 5 years). Vets with limited talent matter for depth, cohesion, reliability, consistency. These things are important to a team.
But here I am on messageboard where people constantly harp on elite talent, comparing Michigan to Alabama and losses to OSU. That’s what counts right?
How have Kinnel and Watson fared against OSU? Is it more accurate to say they played great or more accurate to say they get openly picked on? Would they be starters at Alabama or Clemson?
Woods, Hawkins, and Gray have more talent. They are not seniors but they are bigger and faster. They may be more likely to screw up a basic coverage read against Indiana, but they’re less likely to get burnt crispy repeatedly by OSU’s WRs.
Woods and Hawkins will be upperclassmen, they are poised for breakouts. Both have gotten plenty of hype and Hawkins was acknowledged as the best cover safety on the team. Even if Gray, with Zordich coaching, is somehow not ready to replace Watson, Michigan doesn’t have to rotate their corners to the same extent they have the last few years.
4. Daxton Hill.
What was I saying about talent? Goes for players above without Hill but especially so with him. We’ve seen prospects of this caliber make significant impacts (Peppers/Gary) in recent years. Likely to happen again though Michigan probably won’t NEED it to, given the above.
Conclusion:
The back 6, will be at least as good against elite competition like OSU. In aggregate, if not at every position across the board.
The increase in talent on the field is more than enough to offset the trivial difference in overall experience and heightened uncertainty.
Lower floor but higher ceiling. And that’s what we care about right?
You need to login in order to vote
Yeah, I mean, I don’t really count Hudson as a DB and neither do Michigan’s coaches, so I’m not sure why you do.
I’m not sure what the “talent” thing is that you’re referencing. Tyree Kinnel was #189 overall as a recruit, and J’Marick Woods was #383. Watson was not highly regarded…and neither was Gray. Somehow you’re saying Gray is more talented, though I don’t know on what basis. Recruiting ranking? One guy was #700 and one was #783 overall, which puts them both in the “meh” category without much separation. How do you define talent? Practice hype? Tall-ness? If you’re going by height, then yes, Woods and Gray are more “talented.”
Honestly, I think the only things you have going for you in this argument are that the returning starters (Hill, Metellus) will be better, and Daxton Hill is obviously an influx of talent that we rarely get.
You need to login in order to vote
Because the personnel overlaps, the skillsets overlap, and Brown has said that he plays 3 safeties in the past.
Metellus, Hudson, and Peppers all shuffled between safety and Viper. All of them were recruited as DBs. All of them are considered DBs to the NFL. Safeties move to play Viper, LBs don’t.
You need to login in order to vote
Going by the fact that Watson’s athleticism was called out from the time he was a recruit. Kinnel was never an elite athlete either but got called out for it after he got here.
Does it mean the others we’ve seen less of are better? Not necessarily but…
Gray, although not an elite athlete, has good athleticism for his size and has jumped ahead of higher rated prospects like Sims and JKP from day 1.
Hawkins was a highly regarded recruit, a former WR, and has been praised for his coverage while having elite size. This one seems pretty obvious to me. He was already getting snaps last year.
I don’t know, this strikes me as a weird line of reasoning from a guy who pimped Ty Isaac for years. It’s good to be big and fast. It isn’t a guarantee of anything but when you’re playing well in a backup role on an elite unit, have those kind of physical gifts, and the starter goes, it’s reason to be optimistic about talent translating.
You need to login in order to vote
Ok…I gots to know. WTF is “elite size”?
You need to login in order to vote
You’ll need to ask your Mom.
You need to login in order to vote
She said it was a meaningless phrase used to try to prop up a failed argument.
You need to login in order to vote
You win this round WCB.
You need to login in order to vote
Why will TE be better?
1. Gentry wasn’t that good.
He was one-dimensional. A good down-field pass catcher but a bad blocker. His YPC was impressive, but we’re talking about play-making ability at a position where on the majority of downs your job is to block. It’s interesting that people with a coaching background would be so focused on the rare individual highlights while ignoring down-to-down team execution in the trenches.
3. The offense will minimize Gentry’s role, if not make it obsolete.
Even if Gentry was coming back he wouldn’t see as many snaps. The OTs will be better at pass-blocking, reducing the need for 2 TE formations. Michigan recruited a ton of slot WRs to play in Gattis’ system. Those guys were recruited to play and those snaps were going to come from TE more than anywhere else.
Does #speedinspace refer to a tall slow-footed TE? I doubt it. Some people aren’t suckers tall-looking skill-position guys who somehow don’t get it done when it matters.
3. Gentry can be replaced by a better pass catcher.
A WR can be better as a downfield threat. We’re talking about going from a guy with Wilton Speight speed to someone who can run better than a 4.5 A WR will also be more reliable at catching balls thrown his ways and MUCH bigger threat to make plays after the catch.
Those difference are significant to the pass game, and more than offsets any potential dropoff in blocking.
4. Gentry’s production is overrated.
30 catches, a season-long of 42 yards, and all of 2 TDs total?
Was he difference maker? Not against OSU – 3 drops. Not against Notre Dame, MSU or PSU — he had 2 catches in each game for 21 yards or yes total.
That production can easily go to Tarik Black without taking anything from DPJ or Collins.
Michigan will be better off for it.
5. McKeon and Eubanks will be better.
The whole point of the TE position is having guys who are multiple threats – to block or pass. Gentry wasn’t. McKeon and Eubanks are better athletes than Gentry and better blockers.
They may not be as good downfield, though Eubanks >20 ypc makes a case that he can be, but they’re better every-down players. Either one is better as a screen-threat than Gentry.
They will both return, better and stronger.
Overall:
The offense will better utilize downfield threats that are superior to Gentry and the every-down TEs will offer better blocking and more opportunities for the offense to be versatile in how it attacks. As a result, the TE position will be more effective overall in 2019.
The offense will be better. Gentry won’t be missed.
You need to login in order to vote
Yikes. Man, you’re really reaching. I’m not sure going through point-by-point is going to do much good, but your #2 and #3 are the same thing. I don’t know why you think “the position is obsolete” and “the new position of putting a receiver out there is going to better.” That’s the same thing. You’re just fluffing it up.
It’s not really about whether Gentry was good or not. It’s whether the next guy will be better. You’ve offered up nothing substantial to suggest the backups are better other than saying “McKeon and Eubanks will be better.” It remains to be seen whether those guys are better athletes. McKeon is not, and I believe that strongly (unless he’s made a major leap this off-season). Eubanks might be.
You can go back and look at the UFRs, and Gentry/Eubanks/McKeon do not grade out as good blockers. I’ve never claimed that Gentry was a great blocker, but we’re talking about in relation to each other. A “meh” blocker who can average 16 yards/catch is better than a “meh” blocker who averages 9.
According to MGoBlog’s blocking UFRs:
vs. PSU: Gentry +2, McKeon -1, Eubanks -1.5
vs. MSU: Gentry -2.5, McKeon -2, Eubanks +2
vs. Northwestern: Gentry -0.5, McKeon 0, Eubanks -2
vs. Nebraska: Gentry +9.5, McKeon +9.5, Eubanks +1
vs. Indiana: Gentry +4, McKeon +10.5, Eubanks -3.5
I stopped after that. Feel free to look up all 11 if you want (no UFR for OSU or Florida).
Overall that’s +12.5 for Gentry, +17 for McKeon, and -4 for Eubanks.
You keep making a big deal about the blocking, and this is why I ignore it: no TE we’ve had recently has been a good blocker. They’re all just mediocre or bad. I would love to see McKeon turn into a monster blocker, but that’s a fantasy that exists only in your head right now. And Eubanks ain’t there, either.
I see how you’re reaching the conclusion. You think yards in the air don’t matter for tight ends (+175-ish for Gentry, as mentioned above) and you think that McKeon (4.5 points better) and Eubanks (16.5 points worse) are better blockers. It’s flawed rationale.
And if you think the position is disappearing, fine, but then why are you hyping up McKeon and Eubanks? I’m all for #speedinspace, so fine, put Mike Sainristil in there or Ronnie Bell or Oliver Martin or whoever. But don’t say the TE position is improved because Mike Sainristil’s playing in the slot, because that’s not the same thing.
I think the TE position will be slightly worse because:
a) The starter left
b) Only last year’s backups remain
c) Gentry is taller than McKeon
d) McKeon is shorter than Gentry
That’s FOUR reasons. Count ’em. Yep, lots o’ reasons.
You need to login in order to vote
Har har.
Yards in the air do matter for tight ends, wide receivers, and all the positions combined. It doesn’t matter what position they come from.
Anyway, Eubanks has a better YPC than Gentry. So what’s the problem.
I think McKeon is a really good athlete and the coaches have spoken to the point repeatedly. He pretty strong and pretty fast. He gets open. He just can’t catch. The coaches, Harbaugh in particular, have praised McKeon’s blocking repeatedly. He has been all-conference 2 years in a row and has started 16 games, despite unimpressive pass catching numbers. He’s on the field for a reason and that reason is he is at least decent at blocking.
Even if you grant that no recent TE has been a good blocker, some have been terrible. Including Gentry in 2017. PFF ranked him 200 out of 300, per Mgoblog.
I appreciate the UFR run-down but if there’s any place that methodology is off it’s at OL. Back when Brian Cook had access to PFF it was consistently the point where there was the greatest disagreement. That makes sense since it’s the technical aspect that requires some deeper knowledge of technique and scheme. No offense to Brian, it’s just a hard thing to evaluate, IMO.
Gentry may have gotten better at blocking in 2018 but he wasn’t as good as McKeon per Harbaugh and playing time logic. I didn’t spot as many mess-ups with Eubanks as Gentry had, but I guess TBD if he’s an asset in the blocking department.
You need to login in order to vote
Shorten the argument.
1. Gentry wasn’t that good and his production as a receiver will be easily replaced. Somebody else can catch 2 TDs all year and drop 3 balls against OSU.
2. Changes to the offense will de-emphisize TE importance. 2 positions will become 1. With fewer snaps and less need for pass-catching the way the TE position is used will be streamlined. That better fits the returning 2/3s of the rotation.
3. The 2 ‘other’ returning TEs will be stronger, including a 16-game starter who has been all conference the last 2 years (on the strength of his blocking mostly) and a rising JR who has better YPC.
Section for JE since he loves reading these but doesn’t understand them:
The bar for improvement is low.
There will be more experience and versatility.
The execution will be better because the fit is better.
You need to login in order to vote
Lengthen the argument:
4. Ben Mason at “RB-TE” > Zach Gentry at “WR-TE”
You need to login in order to vote
LOL. You just can’t help yourself, can you?
For all your bluster about “The coaches are usually right” when it comes to the RB discussion, that seems to have gone out the window with the tight ends. Who started all 13 of Michigan’s games at TE in 2018? Zach Gentry. (McKeon started 6.) Who was Third Team All-Big Ten? Zach Gentry. (McKeon was Honorable Mention.) Who has all of 2 career starts, both coming at fullback? Ben Mason.
I guess the coaches must have been wrong these last couple years about starting Gentry in front of McKeon and Mason…
You need to login in order to vote
I never said Gentry wasn’t better in 2018. I don’t really doubt the playing time decisions.
I’m arguing that 2019 McKeon will be better than 2018 Gentry. 2018 Gentry >2018 McKeon. 2017 McKeon > 2017 Gentry. 2019 McKeon will be best of all these.
Part of this is the expected changes in the offense.
I think the coaches (including Drevno and Hamilton who are gone) overrated both McKeon and Gentry.I think they threw the ball to both of them too often. Some of that was out of need (OT and WR) but some of it was them overrating their TE personnel limitations.
New coaches, new philosophy, better OT situations, and more WRs. An experienced senior with 16 starts and all conference honors starting, backed by a junior with proven playmaking ability.
That performance that we will get from the position will be better.
You need to login in order to vote
Lank: trust the coaches…
Also Lank: once the coaches leave, I’ll determine whether they were actually trustworthy
You need to login in order to vote
I don’t think I can help these sort of replies to a post that starts off with:
“I don’t really doubt the playing time decisions.”
You need to login in order to vote
I don’t understand YOU
You’re all over the place. We all appreciate your contribution, because it’s entertaining. But almost no one ever agrees with you. You know this, which is why you feel the need to follow up on (and answer) your own posts. You can’t even convince yourself
You need to login in order to vote
You’re right about the first part and wrong about the second.
You’re interpreting things in a very simplistic way. I do try to clarify my arguments, particularly when they are misinterpreted, but I have no problem with people disagreeing.
You need to login in order to vote
In summary:
Lank: there’s reason to EXPECT improvement and for TE/DBs/RBs/LBs to be better. To deny that is to be a sourpuss fan
Also Lank: the problem with Michigan fans is expectations are too high
Some people just want to argue ??♂️
You need to login in order to vote
Incorrect
You need to login in order to vote
That interior line depth is a little concerning. Here’s hoping Dwumfor comes back at 100% for fall camp, and here’s hoping Hinton and Smith can be impactful players as freshmen.
And still holding out hope for the Rice DT transfer.
In relation to Dwumfor, Herbert has a history with foot injuries at Arkansas. Dwumfor and Black are two players with foot injuries. Is this anything to be keep an eye on or would you chalk it up to coincidence?
You need to login in order to vote
I think it’s very concerning and compounded by Mattison’s departure.
There’s a case that if a few things go their way the DT performance could be better than last year, but there’s also a case that if a few things don’t the DT position will be a disaster. We’ve fallen off big time from 2016.
You need to login in order to vote
Here the substantive counter-arguments to my posts on expecting better seasons from TE and DB.
TE
1. There is no statistical evidence that blocking will be better.
2. Doubt over scheme change.
DB
1. There is no guarantee that returning players get better.
2. Doubt cast over argument of more talent.
2. Arguing what positions are included.
Here are my responses.
TE.
1. McKeon is consistently praised for his blocking and got all conference honors for reasons beyond his pass catching. Gentry may not have been as awful as his reputation but college pundits and NFL scouts have both called it out as a weakness.
2. Michigan is not going to utilize dual TEs like they did. Gentry and McKeon have combined for 40 starts in the last 2 seasons (Gentry has 24 starts and McKeon has 16). These multiple TE positions won’t exist like they did. The spot that is mostly gone is the pass-catching one that Gentry covered, which will be replaced by WRs (big downfield threats and lil slot bugs both). The in-line TE (who has more blocking responsibility) will stay, which McKeon covered. The position will see far fewer snaps in total. Two of the top 3 TEs return to less total responsibility and the snaps that remain are the ones where we have more depth and experience.
The -175 math is laughable because McKeon and Gentry weren’t used the same way. Kekoa Crawford had more YPC than DPJ or Nico Collins in 2017. Ian Bunting had more than Jake Butt in 2015. These are not problems for the offense.
Gentry’s downfield ability is acknowledge but can be replaced by older/better Eubanks (in 2 TE sets, if/when they still exist) and faster/better WRs (in 1 TE sets). Anyway that downfield ability disappeared against better competition.
DB
1. There is no guarantee but vast majority get better.
2. Fair to contend with the talent argument. Talent is subjective. BUT speed was questioned for Kinnel and Watson consistently. If Daxton Hill is in the rotation it will pretty clearly be more talented than 2018 (at least if recruiting rankings are to be trusted at all). If Hill isn’t it’s less clear but if nothing else the secondary will be bigger and faster.
Comparing recruiting rankings for departed players with potential replacements.
Long (4 star #65) – Thomas (4 star #90)
Kinnel (4 star #189) – D.Hill (5 star #14) or Woods (3-star #383) or Hawkins (3-star #425)
Watson (3 star #783) – Hawkins (3-star #425) or Gray (3-star #700) or JKP (4-star #250)
Add up the 2018 rankings you get 345
Add up the 2019 rankings (splitting evenly between the potential replacements) and you get 274.
Some evidence to back the ‘more talent’ assertion. Flimsy and assumption-dependent sure, but when the bar is multiplying head-tot-head YPC differential and asserting that will go for the team…
2. Viper personnel is DB personnel and vice versa.
You need to login in order to vote
McKeon has had his share of drops and buffoon-ish looking plays. You act as if Gentry is the only one to drop any passes, and no, he did not have a great game against OSU. But it was 62-39. Not many Michigan guys looked great on that day, including the whole defense that was awesome up to that point. Does that mean the defense will improve, because they biffed against OSU? No. It’s looked at as a glitch that will hopefully get worked out but might not. But in the case of Gentry, you’re not talking about his drops as a one-off glitch in the matrix. It’s apparently just time for an overhaul, and whoever steps in will be better.
As for the scheme, your argument doesn’t make any sense. Bicycles weren’t made better by being replaced with automobiles. “Ah, yes! We have a better bike! It’s a very nice bike! Top-notch! It has four wheels and you sit down in it and it’s called a Ford.” The TE position isn’t improved by removing it from the field. It’s just obsolete. Or diminished. It’s a red herring. You’re trying to lead us down a path that doesn’t exist. I’ve called you out on this a couple times now, and you still pretend that it’s an argument – just like your whole comment here, which is an argument you’re having with yourself in which you want to claim a victory.
You need to login in order to vote
It’s not just the 3 drops against OSU. Gentry didn’t make any plays against tough competition. His longest catches:
ND: 8 yards
MSU: 16 yards
Wisc: 5 yards
OSU: n/a didn’t catch a ball
His long catches came against SMU, Maryland, and Indiana. Why are you so quick to deride players like Speight and Robinson for falling off statistically against tough competition but Gentry is somehow impossible to replace. Where Speight’s INTs against OSU in 2016 also a one-off?
You need to login in order to vote
Cherry-pick much? Long of 27 vs. top-10 Florida. 42- and 41-yarders against Indiana. Long of 22 vs. Northwestern in a tough win.
I never said Gentry is impossible to replace. You’re putting words in my mouth. YOU’RE the one who said we would improve at TE. The burden isn’t on me to prove that isn’t true. You haven’t given one shred of solid evidence that the TE position will improve, because it’s predicated on “The coaches think/say McKeon can block,” and even that is questionable because Gentry was starting over him, so the gap must not have been large enough to warrant a change to the depth chart.
I’ll wait for the senior leap from McKeon…
You need to login in order to vote
Burden of proof isn’t on any side. These are arguments of opinions on the future. Reasonable people can disagree.
I laid out my case. You don’t have to agree. But it seems like you are hostile to understanding the points I’m making regarding the context and need changing in 2019.
I’m “cherry-picking” the 4 games that mattered most to Michigan football: OSU, MSU, ND and Wisc. You want to talk about games against Indiana & Northwestern for Gentry, but I know you wouldn’t go there with Denard…
Gentry made a big leap in his senior year. I have no clue if McKeon will do the same but he doesn’t need to for the context of this debate.
It’s you who twisted this into a oversimplified McKeon vs Gentry argument. That’s not how this started and it’s not the point I was trying to make. Even though I think McKeon is a better player entering 2019 than Gentry was entering 2018, it’s clearly an eye-of-the-beholder valuation of different skill sets.
There’s other things that are less eye of the beholder:
-The TE position returns more experience in 2019 than it did in 2018
-The TE position returns more all conference honors in 2019 than it did in 2018
-The TE position is likely to be used differently and less often with a new scheme, new OC, new QB coach, and increased emphasis on recruiting slot WRs.
You need to login in order to vote
Lank: Michigan fans bash players, and players see it. Michigan fans are the nastiest
Also Lank: Gentry wasn’t good. Michigan fans overvalue him
You need to login in order to vote
Oh and, if you don’t agree with Lank, he’s got yo mama jokes for ya… Tell me again that’s it’s other MICHIGAN fans who are nasty… please
You need to login in order to vote
That was a dumb joke. WCB’s response was good.
If I offended anyone — Sorry.
You need to login in order to vote
The TE position effectiveness depends on how it is used.
If you’re a 2 car household with a mini-van and a sedan one year and then you dump the mini-van when children go off to college you’re probably better off overall. You might not haul as many people all over town or have as many long-distance options, but you don’t need those things anymore. Meanwhile you save money on insurance and maintenance, and replace some trips with taxi, bike, whatever. Life is better.
You need to login in order to vote
This is dumb, man. “You’re probably better off overall” is the point – you’re talking about OVERALL, as in the offense as a whole. The beginning of this whole discussion was about position groups, not the whole offense.
Will the offense be better overall? Yeah, probably. At least I hope so. Sure. Go Mike Sainristil!
Will the tight ends be better? I’m done with that argument.
You need to login in order to vote
Follow the analogy.
Players = The vehicles you own.
TE = Your transportation situation.
The offense = Everything in life.
Everything in life is a big multi-factored thing of which transportation is just a piece.
Your transportation situation is heavily dependent on the vehicles you own but ultimately what matters is how they are used and how well they serve your needs in life.
You need to login in order to vote
I get it. It’s dumb. We’re arguing different things. Done with it.
You need to login in order to vote
My statement from a couple days ago:
“The TE position will be more effective overall in 2019.”
TBH I think the bar is pretty low by Michigan football standards. OSU is the most glaring example but it goes deeper than that.
If you want to just boil it down to McKeon vs Gentry, ignoring context and changes in role it’s a different argument but still holds.
It’s pretty common for a younger backup to replace a starter without a dropoff, even good starters. (e.g., just to list some examples from the 2017 defense: Long, Hudson, Bush, Gary, Winovich) .
In this case the player (McKeon) is younger but also more experienced, more well-rounded, and faster.
But yes, McKeon won’t replace Gentry’s downfield threat. He won’t be able to match the catch radius that Indiana couldn’t handle. Eubanks, Collins and Black can more than handle that part.
You need to login in order to vote
not trying to be a prick but how do you have the time for this? or patience.
i dig the passion and you help contribute to some interesting reading – but its time to retire this argument next to isaac, speight, etc.
if its a conversation with some back and forth bw football fans, thats great. this though…
You need to login in order to vote
That’s fine. Doesn’t sound like you’re being a prick IMO, but others kind of are. So I’ll defend myself for a minute anyway.
I gave my opinion. It is sincere and backed by some rationale. People took at as a hot take for some reason and asked, essentially, “WTF”.
Keep in mind, the thing I was responding too was (to paraphrase) “only 1 or 2 position groups will be better next year”. Which seems like a much bigger hot take, but maybe that’s what the majority of fans think. That’s fine too.
Anyway people asked. So I clarified. Then my arguments get twisted by someone like JE. Did I say anything about how the team was going to do overall? No.
You are free to disagree. If my posts are too long you can not read. If the conversation is too wonky, you can ignore it.
You need to login in order to vote
Now entering victim stage…
You need to login in order to vote
Let me put it another way.
Last year Michigan TE was 1.8 FTE position and this year it is a 1.0 FTE position.
2018
SR Pass Catcher, JR, SO to cover 1.8 FTE.
1 combined All Conference Honor returning.
2019
SR, JR, FR Pass Catcher to cover 1.0 FTE.
2 combined All Conference Honor returning.
You need to login in order to vote
Asserting that TE performance won’t be better in 2019 appears to be based on the following logic:
-Gentry’s down-field passing ability won’t be replaced in the offense (by any player at TE OR WR). 4.9 speed at 6’8 is dramatically better than 4.5 speed at 6’5.
-Gentry’s blocking wasn’t significantly worse than other TEs. NFL scouts and Harbaugh can say all they want, we have UFRs.
-McKeon and Eubanks won’t show significant improvement. There are examples where this happens with some players sometimes.
-It doesn’t really matter than Gentry failed to make plays in games that matter most and completely crapped the bed against OSU. The Indiana and Northwestern games were close and Gentry made an impact in those.
– Team context doesn’t matter. One starting TE should be compared to another starting TE, regardless of role, scheme, or the players around him.
You need to login in order to vote
Nah.
You need to login in order to vote
This is your blog Thunder. I can stop commenting here. Is that your preference?
You need to login in order to vote
I like Michigan football and I like a good debate. Seems like I may need to find a different venue for that sort of conversation.
You need to login in order to vote
I don’t want you to stop commenting overall. But I’ve said several times in this thread that I’m done with the discussion. I don’t know how else to phrase it.
You need to login in order to vote
So be done. What’s the problem?
Further comments are forbidden?
You need to login in order to vote
The problem is that when I stop, you start a new thread in which you summarize the opposing viewpoint (largely mine) while also mis-representing it. Several people have chimed in during this discussion with varying degrees of “Let it go.” That might be a hint.
You need to login in order to vote
“A new thread” mostly because it’s impossible to read a few replies in on here.
You need to login in order to vote
I appreciate the feeling of having a position mischaracterized and I understand the conflict of bothering to respond to it vs dropping it. That’s a personal call. BUT…
It’s a very different thing to end a conversation with “I’m done” vs. “Shut up now.”
“Nah” or some variant is dismissive but gets the message across. That’s saying YOU, the individual involved, are done and out. That’s fine.
“Let it go” sounds like shut up now. You’re talking too much. Telling someone else what to do. On message board, or in real life, that’s a dick move. The only time I’ve ever been insulted on this blog over the years was once — when I was called a “customer”.
I’m not a troll. I’m here to have a conversation or debate. Call that an argument if you want. By this point you know what I’m going to do – many posts, many of them long and/or focused on a disagreement, many of them going down a topic rabbit hole further than most want to go. The tone will start diplomatic but sometimes fail to stay there, not out of malice. Obviously this isn’t everyone’s cup of tea – which is fine too – but I am who I am.
Thunder – you can tell me to shut up, or… don’t tell me to shut up. Take it or leave it.
I appreciate your blog but I don’t need to be on here if I’m not welcome. I don’t think that’s the case but I’ve been wrong before. I honestly don’t have a problem with being told to bounce. Not asking for praise or a free pass to say whatever I want — decorum should be maintained — but I am asking to not be told to shut up because I use too many words.
There’s been a handful of people who wrote long things on here (mostly in the past) that I didn’t value. My response was to ignore those people. I quit reading what they wrote, let alone responding. I didn’t sit and bitch about how they write too many words like JE does. I think it’s pretty easy to say nothing to people you find especially dumb and boring – but I guess some people feel an obligation to watch Stephen A Smith talk for some reason. That’s on them, not Smith.
You need to login in order to vote
It’s not that you’re unwelcome. It’s that sometimes conversations get too long-winded. I don’t really think that’s an insult. There are times in my life where I’m on the phone with someone, and I realize at some point, “Yeah, I’m talking too much” or “I’m talking too much about myself” or “This person doesn’t care about this topic as much as I do.” It’s not an insult. It’s just a social awareness that some people have when other parties have grown tired of the current thread of conversation.
You’re welcome to post here, but I think you also need to understand that you can only squeeze so much juice out of a lemon. It might be easy enough for some people not to respond, but I get an e-mail every time someone comments on the site, so I’m obliged to read everything. So when it’s harping on a topic I tried to quit 10 posts ago, it gets old. Sometimes we just need to say “Nothing I say is going to move this conversation forward” (and that goes both ways) and move on to something else, whether it’s the next post or the new “Joker” trailer or a bit of injury news or whatever.
You need to login in order to vote
I appreciate the response. Apologies for going emo yesterday. I guess I woke up on the wrong side of the bed.
Go Blue.
You need to login in order to vote
Lanky chill. Please reread ragingbull’s post. Your posts and the analysis you bring make me a better poster towards a clinical bent. While I may understand your positions (agreeing or disagreeing with them), I don’t feel the need to counter them or applaud them ad nauseum.
By the same token I have followed je93 for years here and elsewhere and he posts from the perspective of an athlete and father, with hard work and honor, and sweat in the trenches. I agree with him very often. I don’t feel the need to counter/accept his every vowel either. My guess he is OK with that.
Peace.
You need to login in order to vote
Well, different people see things different ways. The majority of dude’s posts lately are about me (yes, I understand the irony in this post). Probably not just lately. I don’t have much respect for the unoriginal opinions and lack of insight. Nothing to do with disagreement – when he’s not responding to me, I tend to agree with most of the basic views anyway. What I’ve come to be annoyed with is the persistent trolling ( I assume it is intentional because the alternative is just a dim bulb). This is going back to the ANON days. Been some valid critiques buried in the bluster and a handful of decent debates over the years but lately it’s straight trash from the garbage man. I don’t see any honor in being an online troll. But different strokes I guess…
If he’s a marine or whatever – I respect and appreciate the service, but I don’t feel the need to talk about my kids or how many TDs I scored at Polk High. It’s cool if people want to do that, but not my bag. I don’t care about your background unless it informs the conversation about football. I’m here to talk about that.
Anyway, that’s my opinion. Plenty of it is on me — I can take my own advice and ignore what I don’t care to read from other people. I’ll also take your’s to chill out. This thread has gotten way too emo. Go Blue.
You need to login in order to vote
Have to agree the TE position is solid and of little to no concern. Gentry will not be missed one iota, especially since the position will be deemphasized this year under Gattis.
You need to login in order to vote