Michigan RB yards per carry



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    • #12954
      Thunder
      Keymaster

      Here is some information gathered by Lanknows:

      Here are some YPC comparisons for Michigan RB over the years. (This is kind of a tangent and more related to previous debates, but interesting nonetheless.) The point: sometimes the better RB will have the better YPC…but very often, not.

      20 years of Michigan RB YPC

      1997: Chris Howard 4.8 YPC > Chris Williams> 4.6 > Anthony Thomas 4.1 YPC
      1998: Walter Cross 4.1 YPC > Justin Fargas 3.6 YPC
      2000: Walter Cross 5.8 YPC > Chris Perry 5.4 YPC > Justin Fargas 4.7 YPC
      2001 and 2002: BJ Askew 4.4 and 5.2 YPC > Chirs Perry 4.1 and 4.2 YPC
      2003: Jerome Jackson 6.4 YPC > David Underwood 5.2 YPC > Chirs Perry 5.0 YPC
      2006: Jerome Jackson 7.6 YPC > Brandon Minor 5.7 YPC > Mike Hart 4.9 YPC
      2007: Carlos Brown 5.1 YPC > Brandon Minor 4.3 YPC
      2009: Mike Cox 8.7 YPC > Vincent Smith 5.8 YPC > Brandon Minor 5.2 YPC > Denard Robinson 5.1 YPC
      2011: Vincent Smith 6.0 YPC > Fitz Toussaint 5.6 YPC > Denard Robinson 5.3 YPC
      2012: Justice Hayes 4.6 YPC > Thomas Rawls 4.2 YPC > Fitz Toussaint 4.0 YPC
      2013: DeVeon Smith 4.5 YPC > Fitz Toussaint 3.5 YPC
      2014: Derrick Green 5.7 YPC > DeVeon Smith 4.8 YPC
      2015: Ty Isaac 8.5 YPC > DeVeon Smith 4.8 YPC

      Almost every single year you can draw a spurious conclusion.

      • This topic was modified 8 years, 6 months ago by Thunder.
    • #12957
      Lanknows
      Participant

      Some of these (like Mike Cox in ’09) will doubtlessly be considered valid. some of these are functions of small sample size. Some include sacks (Denard).

      Regardless, some are just flat out wrong (Cross, Jackson, V.Smith were not great talents carrying the ball out of the backfield,) no matter what the YPC numbers say.

      Re: Ty Isaac. We’ll just have to wait to see if he ever gets significant snaps in meaningful situations but I see it a lot like the data from the previous years. If you give 20 carries to Smith or Isaac against an MSU I am pretty confident that Smith would be the more productive back. Just my opinion, but I think Harbaugh agrees.

      • #12959
        Thunder
        Keymaster

        I don’t think anyone would argue with you that Denard Robinson is a more talented runner than just about anyone on the list. It’s not really fair to compare quarterbacks to running backs.

        That’s fine if you think that way about MSU. If you give 20 carries to Smith or Isaac against UNLV, I am pretty confident that Isaac would be the more productive back…and I have evidence to back that up. We’ll just see about Smith vs. Isaac.

        Again, I have never said that yards per carry is the definition of the better running back. But it is a strong indicator of who’s being successful. Only in very rare cases – such as the terrible OL of 2013 – will I suggest that a running back who’s averaging 4.0 yards/carry or less should be the #1 back with the vast majority of cases. Smith was averaging 3.9 yards/carry up until this past week, and his good game bumped it all the way up to 4.8, which is still below several of the guys listed. It’s a sign of how bad we’ve been that a guy averaging 3.9 yards/carry can garner as much support as he did.

        BTW, I think it’s a little misleading to use Anthony Thomas’s (and others’) freshman stats to make your point. If you want to talk about using stats “well” or “poorly,” then saying “Anthony Thomas was clearly the best back but he only averaged 4.1 yards/carry so you’re wrong” is a bit like saying, “Tom Brady redshirted as a freshman, so he was the best QB even though he didn’t start.” Thomas went on to average 5.2, 4.4, and 5.4 yards/carry once he was a non-freshman.

        We’re not talking about freshmen here. We’re talking about a bunch of guys who are redshirt sophomores, juniors, and redshirt juniors.

        • #12960
          Lanknows
          Participant

          “But it is a strong indicator of who’s being successful.”

          I just gave you nearly 20 examples where it wasn’t. You might be able to get to 20 examples of Michigan RBs who WERE ranked correctly by YPC, but the count comparison is going to be close.

          It’s an OK indicator, but it’s not a great one. At least not until you get at least 50 carries or so because the rest can just be ascribed to context. In other words you need some apples to apples data to compare apples to apples performance results.

          Smith average 4.8 yards last year and 4.5 yards the year before. Mike Hart averaged 5.0 for his career, 4.4 his soph year, and 4.9 his junior year. Thomas averaged 4.8 ypc and 4.4 his junior year. I don’t see anything to complain about. You can nitpick numbers after 3 games if you want but it seems silly. All these guys are in a very similar range and I would strongly argue that Hart and Thomas had much better OLs.

          Smith, like any back, is generally going to get more yards against bad competition than he gets against good competition. Utah is very good competition. We’re basically down to complaining that he didn’t get enough yards against UNLV. Come on.

          Your freshman critique is valid and it isn’t. Freshman numbers are often used to make arguments for guys to see more playing time, and I think rightfully so for RBs. What we WANT to see from a freshman is some time as a backup RB (hopefully to a very good upperclassmen) wherein he is productive in non-meaningful situations. That’s an opportunity for said guy to show his stuff, get his feat wet, and get us excited for the future. Fitz Toussaint, chris Perry and many others have flashed some talent in those spots, but still had to refine their games. Nothing definitive, but those kind of stats in garbage time should be good. The bigger issue is sample size, by far.

          As for Thomas specifically — he was who he was from the gate and he played an extensive role as a freshman 130 carries, 21 receptions). I don’t think he really got better as a ballcarrier to be honest, he just got more carries and got better at the non-ball-carrying stuff. He had 4.1 ypc his freshman year and 4.4 ypc his junior year. We’re not talking about a guy who changed that dramatically, so including his freshman year is fair IMO.

          • #13031
            Thunder
            Keymaster

            I said it was a good indicator of who’s being successful. I didn’t say it was the only indicator, nor did I say it necessarily determined the best back. You can’t look at Vincent Smith’s 6.0 yards/carry and say he’s being “unsuccessful” or “bad.”

            • #13032
              Lanknows
              Participant

              I agree with those statments, but I think you probably did call Smith bad at some point.

    • #13058
      Lanknows
      Participant

      This is an interesting example of how our prejudice guides our conceptions.

      There are two hypotheses on Isaac as he entered his college career: he is good, or he is not good. Neither was right or wrong, because we had no data. They are both just ideas.

      As he entered college in 2013 the evidence FOR Isaac is that he is a 5-star recruit with offers from all over. The evidence AGAINST Isaac is that while recruiting rankings correlate with production, it’s highly uncertain and commonly disproven.

      After 1 season at USC in 2013, both hypotheses remained valid. On the “he is good” side: you have an impressive yard per carry average, some good highlight that showed off his athletic skills, and the fact the he was not red-shirted. On the “he is bad” side: you have his position on the depth chart, and the plausible disregard for the ‘good’ data because it came against bad competition and/or in low leverage situations. The interpretation perhaps hinges on the context of that team – what does means for a freshman RB to be 5th string amidst other good talent? In other words:How good were those running backs?

      The #1 back that year was Javoris Allen. Allen averaged 5.8 ypc that year and 5.4 ypc the following year. He is two classes above Isaac, had an excellent college career and was drafted in the 4th round and is the Ravens 3rd string back currently.

      The #2 back that year was Tre Madden, who was also 2 years older than Isaac. After switching from defense and getting hurt in 2012, he averaged 5.1 ypc in 2013 and got hurt again in 2014. He is averaging 5.8 ypc this year and leads the team in carries. He is generally considered to be an NFL-caliber talent, but like Allen isn’t viewed as an elite one.

      The #3 back that year was Silas Redd, a junior. (At least in terms of total carries. He was sometimes the #2 back when he was healthy.) Redd averaged 5.4 ypc and then 4.6 ypc in more limited action in 2014. He went undrafted but made the NFL and got backup carries with the Redskins. He has since gotten hurt, is out for the year, and has been waived. Hard to gauge his talent given injuries, but his future prospects don’t look great.

      The #4 back was Justin Davis. Davis was a fellow freshman that year, ranked lower than Isaac as a recruit, but beat him out got more carries and averaged more YPC. This is now less justifiable than backing up veteran backs, but the case was made that Davis was ALSO a special talent. The thing is that now, in his junior year, Davis has only risen to third string. Last year as a second stringer he averaged 4.6 ypc (his ypc went down as he got more carries in tougher situations, like almost every back does.) This year his ypc is over 7, but as he is 3rd string, that’s only based on 20 carries. He seems pretty good, but far from great.

      Isaac should not be expected to start over Allen certainly, not doing so only means he isn’t Bo Jackson. But it also means he’s probably not a future 1st round pick. The case of being bested by Madden and Redd is also justifiable due to age, but again should increment expectations a bit lower. These are quality veteran college backs but do not appear to be future NFL standouts. 22 RBs got drafted in 2014 and Redd was not one of them. At this point it becomes reasonable to lower the ceiling on Isaac’s potential when he’s not as good as guys who are somewhere around the Fitz Toussaint/Thomas Rawls level of RB talent. Losing to Justin Davis should lower expectations further than that.

      So now we have some data. It’s still limited but nonetheless it’s useful. And this is where our paths diverge. The fan/optimist still sees the 5-star hype and the doubter/pessimist sees the 5th string status behind good but not great competition.

      Then you have the lost year of 2014 due to transfer. The doubter sees a lack of hype, significant weight gain, injuries, and rumblings about work ethic, attitude, and even another transfer. The doubter sees the transfer as perhaps a sign of a lack of resilience that some of the rumors about mental toughness seem to substantiate. Meanwhile, the optimist sees the transfer as wholly justifiable and the bad rumors as something to be brushed aside. People transfer and people get hurt.

      At this point though, any reasonable person would start to have doubts and increment expectations a bit downward. Isaac has an atypical body for a running back (taller and/or heavier than the vast majority of backs) and the track record of transfers in general offsets the track record of 5-stars in general to at least some degree. The objective odds are starting to stack against him. A former 5-star player, now 240 pounds, and coming off a transfer and injuries…

      Then you have the 2015 season. In August we hear that Isaac has slimmed down from around 240 to 230. Some see this as a negative, but the general consensus is that it’s a good thing. If nothing else, it means he is working hard. We hear the he is competing for the starting job and we hear praise about his size and speed combination and rumors of a 3-RB package to help get him on the field more often. The pessimist, at this point, must increment his floor for Isaac’s ability upward. He is at least a competent RB, capable of competing with starting-caliber Big 10 RBs. Harbaugh wants to play him, that should tell you all you need to know.

      On the other hand he doesn’t win the job. His completion was two classmates (Smith and Green) who had respectable but uninspiring freshman and sophomore years where they both started off and on. He does not beat them out.

      So now, again, at this point it is reasonable to increment expectations downward. Even an optimist must note that Isaac does not appear to be anywhere near the level that historically great big UM backs like Wheatley and Thomas were by the time they were juniors.

      So as we enter the season, you would think there would be convergence and settling on opinions. Is Isaac good – probably depends on your definition but clearly he is at least viable. Is he bad – probably not but clearly he isn’t great.…but still a consensus seems to be lacking.

      Despite Smith having excellent production, people have already made up their minds on him and dream of something better. Despite Isaac getting few meaningful carries and his playing time being chipped away by a 2-star recruit from the high school across the street, there are still numerous calls for Isaac to get more opportunity to usurp the starter.

      The starter gets hurt and Isaac gets the first carries. The optimist pleas have been answered, and you all know how this story ends.

      The coaching staff says someone else is clearly #1 and they’ve said it since the start of the season. As the 2-star RB returns to health the coaches call the positional hierarch “solidifying” and then days later name him #2. Isaac wallows at 3rd (or 4th string)…and still the calls remain with some of the fan/optimists.

      I wonder if people will still think Isaac is a great back loaded with untapped potential when he is a senior backup. It’s an interesting case of how prejudice and expectations guide our interpretation of reality.

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