I’m always fascinated by running back deployment and the backfield rotation, so this is one of the most intriguing situations year in and year out (LINK). There are four guys vying for serious playing time, and the freshmen aren’t even on campus yet.
Hit the jump for a good looking girl named Rosanna Cordoba.
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I think it’s likely that Michigan will have packages with RBs lining up all over the place in much the same way we have had multiple TE/H Backs lining up in multiple sets.
If it were me, I’d be motioning Evans into and out of just about any pre-snap spot he could possibly stand
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People say stuff like this every year because we always have too many RBs. It almost never happens. The closest thing under Harbaugh was the Houma/Kerridge 2 FB lineup. Last year people wanted Smith at FG while Ty Isaac carried beside him. That…didn’t happen.
I think the truth is that nobody behind Evans is talented enough to make an extra effort to get on the field.
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Lanknows, ” I think the truth is that nobody behind Evans is talented enough to make an extra effort to get on the field.” Which argument are you pushing here, lack of talent or effort?
I am willing to wait and see their performance on the field, rather than denigrate sophs and incoming freshman. Generally, I agree with you about the OL making the backs, and that we have a lot of roster space tied up in the backfield. But, it is OK to be wise and fair.
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I’m saying the coaches aren’t going to go crazy dreaming up unorthodox 2-RB formations to get unexceptional players on the field.
They’ve demonstrated a preference to play with TEs and FBs. So it would take special players to change that. Khalid Hill is an interesting player who is probably more valuable to the team than getting a backup RB like Higdon out there. Wheatley is the #2 TE (presumably) – same for him. We have a boatload of fast and/or big WR…
The article just seems pretty fluffy to me. Yes, you need a bunch of RBs to play over the full season, but the 3rd and 4th guy are getting most of their yards in meaningless situations. In the last 4 games (all competitive to the end) our number 3 and 4 backs combined for 20 carries for 21 yards. You can plug in a backup FB or walk-on and do the same.
These are the guys we’re trying to get on the field bad enough to sit DPJ, Wheatley, or Hill on the bench? I really doubt it.
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The coaches won’t have to “go crazy” and the formations aren’t gonna be “unorthodoox”.Personnel will be assigned to stuff that’s already a lot like stuff we already have.
Last year we had people around here thinking that there was no way we’d line up three tight ends at a time.
Here’s an easy one. Evans lines up at TB, Isaacs line up at HB, Evans motions wide, Issacs shifts back to TB. For a fairly pain in the ass wrinkle, come out double wing with any HB you’d prefer on the other side.
Or reverse it if you can get Isaac to block a little more than a little ( a tall order, I’ll concede, although Seniors will occasionally grow up and get serious ), Evans lines up in the slot Isaac lines up at TB, Isaacs steps up to HB, Evans motions Jet Sweepishly, or shifts back to TB. Run it up behind the true H Back for a while if Isaac can’t get it together.
Took me more time to type it than it did to dream up. It’s 7:27 AM. Harbaugh’s already been up for two hours dreaming shit up anyway. This is not a burden for the man.
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I sort of suspected that Isaac would get prominent mention in the rebuttal. To that I can only sigh.
You’re imagining mismatches here that I don’t think are particularly exploitable. As with Funchess as a TE, the Isaac as H-back idea only works if dude can actually block. Otherwise, teams are aware of the personnel you have an you’re not going to fool any decent opponent.
Flipping McDoom and Evans between WR/RB or Hill and Evans between RB and H-back/slot, I would argue, would get you a better chance at a mismatch. So would just straight playing 2 TEs (or a FB) who can both block and catch (Wheatley/Bunting/Hill hopefully) and exploiting whoever is the weaker defender in coverage.
So would just straight putting another one of our many WR weapons (Johnson, McDoom, DPJ, Martin, hell Scholonle! ) on the field? Tarik Black from the slot. etc. Get them out there against somebodies #6 DB and see if they can hang. Those guys are potential playmakers. Isaac and Higdon are not.
I have no doubt JH is going to work to exploit matchups, use motion, move dangerous players around, etc. My argument is against the idea that getting a moderately talented backup RB on the field is the best way to do that.
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You need to forget the notion that somebody in this offense is running out there to personally create some mismatch. Guys in all kinds of shapes and sizes will run out there, the defense will do something that they think is appropriate in reins to our formation and personal package and then we’ll read where the mismatch develops. This is, in part, what Harbaugh is famous for. Why would he stop doing it now?
Isaac had 86 or so touches last year. Barring injury he’s going to have about that same number this year, if not more. Evans had about 100 in 13 games. I think Evans isn’t going to get much more than 12 a game. There will be plenty of touches for everybody in this offense.
You’ll see multiple everything imaginable, TEs, H-Backs and RBs. The opportunities for easy pickings will be even more profound in the passing game where they’ll be trying to get Evans in space on your LBs and Isaac coming downhill on your safeties.
If he doesn’t get hurt, Isaac is gonna get snaps. Get over it.
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I hate F%$(&@# spell check.
How the hell does response turn into reins?
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Can you explain why Isaac got no touches against OSU & FSU?
Can you explain why Isaac get 63 carries in the first half of the season and 11 in the second?
Can you rationalize why the second half disappearance happened not once but twice in consecutive seasons?
Can you explain your extreme confidence in a player who has never finished a season higher than 4th on the depth chart?
This is not a player the coaches are going to go out of their way to go “downhill against safeties”.
Higdon and Evans both passed Isaac. Walker might be on his way too. Samuels and even Taylor will get a shot too.
No offense to the man. He’s an impressive athlete for his size and a capable college running back. But the idea that he’s an impact player at the college level has been thoroughly disproved. He’s the wrong size for RB, not particularly fast, quick, strong, or rugged, and doesn’t possess any skill that he can hang his hat on so to speak. He’s just…OK. Which is fine.
The trouble comes with people who want to make him out to be a star no matter how much evidence there is that that’s not reality.
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In regard to Isaac, I’m not going to launch into the whole thing because we’ve been down that road before. But the odd thing with Isaac is that he is actually talented and has put up good numbers. Is he the best guy on the roster? That’s the part that’s up for debate. But fans have given up on past “elite” running backs who flopped (Derrick Green, David Underwood, etc.). There was a point where people were just like, “Hmph. Yeah, I guess the recruiting sites were wrong.” But a lot of people still believe in Isaac. You’re probably the biggest anti-Isaac person I’ve seen, whether on this site, MGoBlog, or elsewhere.
So there’s something about Isaac that’s keeping hope alive, and it’s not just recruiting rankings. And I’m not the only one who’s seeing it.
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Piece of cake.
Devon Smith was a better blocker.
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eon
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I just told you Isaac gets 80+ or so touches, I said nothing about stardom.
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I couldn’t disagree more. I think because Isaac was in the dog house and being down 3-4 on the depth chart, he couldn’t consistently show what he had. When he played, I thought he was an impressive combination of speed, power and athleticism you want to see in a down hill runner. Honestly I wanted to see him play more but because Smith was the senior and with the emergence of Evans, he couldn’t get enough touches. He is a change up to Evans and Higdon with his size and power. No one else in the stable has his size, speed and game experience. 1. Evans 2. Isaac (because he’s a change up back) 3. Higdon (because he’s battling Evans for virtually the same role) 4. Walker (because being out, he’s playing catch up). In reality he is the number three back by type. Interestingly, Walker is a blend of the backs mentioned earlier and could emerge as having more utility, if he can prove he’s ready in a hurry. It will be tough with the guys ahead of him looking like they are ready to take on larger roles.
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“He is talented” is not backed up by his performance and role. I understand your hypothesis, and I understand that it is a majority view. That doesn’t mean it is correct.
The evidence is contrary to this view. The “he just needs a chance” borders on absurd – particularly coming from people who have been vocal critics of Deveon Smith’s ability.
The question should be why anyone continues to believe in a 5th year senior who has never finished a season higher than 4th on the depth chart.
The answers may vary but I suspect the following are the biggest factors: Isaac is tall. Isaac was a 5-star recruit. Isaac has yet to get 20 carries against a legit opponent.
Green and Underwood got a chance to be starters. That’s why fans gave up on them. Isaac didn’t and so people are hanging despite all the circumstantial evidence (and a decent amount of direct evidence) that he’s a totally unexceptional player. It’s a bit like the backup QB thing. Until they actually prove they don’t fix it, people want to see them.
The best parallel to Isaac is Shane Morris. People will not let go to preconceptions until they see him fail as the starter.
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I think you should consider that maybe you are wrong. I’ve pretty much given up on hyping Isaac, but nobody consistently tears him down (on this site) more than you. Underwood’s career YPC were 3.5, 2.9, 5.2, and 4.4 (4.1 overall), and that’s when Michigan consistently had good offensive lines. Green’s career YPC were 3.3, 5.7, 3.3, and 3.7, the first three of which came at Michigan.
I’ve said this before, but I think you’ve taken to dragging Isaac down because you think I’ve hyped him up too much over the years.
Isaac has averaged 5.9, 6.8, and 5.6 YPC during his three college seasons (1 at USC, 2 at Michigan), and that’s without the benefit of great offensive lines. There are plenty of other backups at Michigan and other schools who have not fared as well. I don’t know all the reasons for his lack of carries, but it’s pretty clear that when he has been given an opportunity, he has run the ball as well as or better than all or most of Michigan’s other options.
Out of players with 88+ carries (I was going to choose 100, but Evans is at 88) at Michigan, Isaac is tied for #7 in YPC all-time at Michigan behind Evans, Jon Vaughn, Denard Robinson, Kerry Smith, Tyrone Wheatley, and Tshimanga Biakabutuka, and tied with Rob Lytle. You talk about him as if he’s just another guy, but he’s producing at a rate higher than all but a few of the greatest runners to ever wear a winged helmet.
Of course, I have thrown out oodles of stats over the past few years, and you bat them away with “Well, but he’s not at the top of the depth chart” or “He’s a jumbo back and I hate jumbo backs.” Stats aren’t going to make a difference at this point. You have closed the book on Isaac and decided that he is not good, regardless of what the facts say or what he does on the field.
But maybe you’re wrong.
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Not intending to denegrate anyone. I think Evans is a star. I have an open mind about Taylor and Samuels. I like Higdon’s character and running style and think he’s a solid college player (though I think he’s a replacement-level talent for Michigan). I admit I’m skeptical about Walker, but otherwise I like our young backs fine. I just don’t see any special talents beside Evans yet. I’m much more excited about our other skill position players.
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Lanky.
Here’s the point you continue to miss. Nobody has to put much thought into creating anything for Isaac. There are already plays in our offense where he’s a fit. So, the coaches are going to be in a meeting, somebody will say, “Such and such a play should go against these guys. Who do we use?” And the answer is going to be, “Isaac” for any one of a number of reasons. Last year he got run in there probably just under 20% of the time on plays that went to RBs.
Isaac – 80
Higdon – 80
Evans – 100
Smith – 180 + catches. Lazy Roanman.
Nothing is going to change much. Every time Harbaugh runs in his 3rd or 4th RB with some personal group, he burns some time in the other guys meeting room. We can run the same formation with various combinations of personal, then run the same basic play with some tiny wrinkle that cost us no time at all, like a shift or a motion that puts Isaac somewhere that forces you to account for him differently that you would Evans. Now Harbaugh has burned more of your time than he’s invested in his own.
Plus, Isaac typically advances the football. It ain’t like he has a track record of falling down in the backfield. Hand it to him and he runs pretty good. Throw it at him and he catches it and then runs pretty good. Maybe he doesn’t get the carries late in the season. But Isaac will be all over a season’s worth of game film. Maybe we do go to Evans 22 times against the Buckeyes. But it would be dumbass on an epic level to be pounding Evans all year against our schedule. I have yet to see much Harbaugh dumbass ….. optional knee brace.
Isaac could catch that Senior thing and be the stud that Thunder would like for him to be. For everybody’s sake, I really hope he does. I have no ax to grind with regards to Isaac one way or the other, beyond hoping he’s good because he’s on my team. But bare minimum, he’s gonna run in, get his carries and some catches and be a guy that you have to account for.
Whether you like it or not.
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Here’s another way to think about it.
So far, Evans doesn’t break many (arguably, damn near any) tackles, We hope that bigger stronger Evans will. Evans makes you miss and then runs away.
We’ve seen Isaac break arm tackles, punish the occasional guy (although so far, not often enough) and is harder on you in general in getting him to the ground. He can make you miss on occasion, but not often and he can run away, but not from everybody.
Isaac and Evans in the exact same position, running the exact same play makes you think about your personnel differently. Moving them into and out of those positions can force a mistake that costs us next to nothing to have created.
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Putting 2 RB on the field in the same package requires thought. You’re compromising blocking and/or pass-catching by doing so. To make it worthwhile you have to think up something interesting to offset what you sacrifice.
No one is “forced to account” for Isaac because Isaac isn’t that kind of player. He can be defended by LB or S without issue. Its not even clear that Evans can’t be and Evans is clearly a bigger threat than Issac.
Isaac didn’t play close to 20% of plays. Furthermore, the vast majority of those snaps came in meaningless situations. Furthermore squared, they came in the first half of the season before he lost ground on the depth chart.
“nothing is going to change” = bad news for Isaac.
If you want a grinding back to replace Smith the lead guy is Higdon, not Isaac.
The issue of Isaac’s ‘potential’ loses sight of the main point of the debate. Michigan didn’t use their 3rd and 4th string backs much in meaningful situations. Those guys get most of their snaps in blowouts – this year’s team is likely to have fewer of those due to the schedule and the anticipated decline in defense. Michigan will need to score more often this year — that means a bigger role for the top guys.
Just pointing to last year and assuming roles are never going to change is very simplistic thinking. Most of the personnel returning (save Smith) is feeding that. But context matters – Harbaugh’s vision isn’t fixed. We already saw roles evolve through the season last year and the year before. Assuming things are fixed and unchangeable is absurd.
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What Thunder said.
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The argument is that Ty Isaac is better than David Underwood or Derrick Green?
Or is the argument that he should get carries instead of Smith or Evans, that Michigan should change their playcalling to get him on the field, that he is a ‘talent’ just waiting to bust out except for…reasons.
I didn’t bring Isaac in this conversations. Others did. I’m not “tearing him down” as much as I’m pointing out reality. We’re all entitled to our opinions but thinking Drake Harris is just waiting to bust out at WR has hit a point of ridiculousness. Isaac’s 2 years older than Harris. While he hasn’t moved positions yet – he probably should have.
“it’s pretty clear that when he has been given an opportunity, he has run the ball as well as or better than all or most of Michigan’s other options.”
This is false. We ave 2 years of evidence that says otherwise. I’ve run through the data many times.
The YPC argument is the same one we’ve had time and time again. You care about what people do in easy situations. I care about what they do against good defenses. We’ve run through Isaac’s stats against good teams before. They are bad. You acknowledged it for Higdon – who is 2 years younger than Isaac – but dismiss it easily for Isaac.
I know you have read Endzone. Your argument is the equivalent of the AD’s attendance argument. Context-free conclusions are misleading and invalid.
You want to put YPC as the end all be all no matter how illogical it is. YPC means more than depth chart.
I mean – the depth chart matters right? Jim Harbaugh isn’t an idiot.
My jumbo back argument is why I didn’t think Ty Isaac would be a difference maker. I don’t if that’s the cause or not but the conclusion that is correct.
I’ve been proven right. Already.
Maybe Isaac makes a leap to elevate to what you (and others) have projected him to be for the last 4 years. Maybe Shane Morris is still going to be a great QB too. Maybe Ondre Pipkins is going to be a helluva NFL player. You never know. But we have a whole lot of evidence to tell us that’s not going to happen. Holding out for these kind of dreams is laughable at this stage.
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The parallels of Green, Underwood, and Shane Morris are ridiculous – ESPECIALLY Morris. Morris had easy situations, and he still sucked. He has been bad at every single opportunity. He even looked bad against Rutgers last year when we beat them by a gajillion points. You say yourself that’s not the case with Isaac, but you make the comparison anyway.
I have also gone through the data, but you dismiss it. Isaac’s stats against ranked teams in 2016: 30 carries, 147 yards. That’s almost 5.0 YPC. Wisconsin, for example, had the #5 FEI defense in the country, and he ran 8 times for 48 yards. Somehow those stats are “bad” and Wisconsin doesn’t count as a good defense.
You’re doing exactly what I said you would – you’re batting away stats with false statements.
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Your jumbo backs argument was … is … and will forever remain nonsense.
Two word did … do … and will forever make it so.
Ron Dayne.
Babble away to your heart’s content.
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Dayne entered college 21 years ago.
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Yes – Underwood and Green parallels are nonsense – I don’t know why you brought them up.
Morris is the parallel because people held on to hope well after it was warranted. Part of it is being a 5-star, part of it is being a local kid. People spent years making excuses for Morris. Same with Isaac. “Talent is there” “You can see it when he plays” – yeah OK…
I quoted the situational stats before. In meaningful situations Isaac is no better than Higdon, who is more than 2 years younger than him and has surpassed him on the depth chart despite being an unexceptional 3-star recruit. Isaac finished behind Green in 2015 for legitimate reasons. But you know more than Harbaugh, I’m sure…
You can keep on Loch-dogging your way through this debate if you want. Again, I’ve already been proven right. You’ve overrated Ty Isaac EVERY. SINGLE. YEAR. in the countdown. I’ve tried to talk you out of it EVERY. SINGLE. YEAR.
Keep believing in the guy who can’t get higher than 4th string on the depth chart at your own peril. Isaac will keep doing what he’s good at — getting beat out by better backs.
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Very few people held onto high hopes for Morris after we saw him play for a couple years. Your comparison doesn’t make sense.
Situational stats: Higdon averaged 8.18 YPC when up by 15+ points; on the rest of his carries, he had 28 attempts for 65 yards (about 2.3 YPC). Isaac averaged 7.13 YPC when up by 15+ points; on the rest of his carries, he had 35 rushes for 139 yards (almost exactly 4.0 YPC).
Any internet argument that includes “You know more than [insert coach], I’m sure…” is an argument not worth having anymore. I’ll remember that one for when you criticize the OL, as you are wont to do. You know, since you know more about OL development than Harbaugh, I’m sure…
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