Nightly Roundup: March 11, 2020

Nightly Roundup: March 11, 2020


March 11, 2020
Is it a coincidence that the coronavirus is scarlet and gray? (image via UN News)

The headline news is, of course, that Michigan is…

  • canceling in-person classes due to coronavirus.
  • going to play basketball tournament games in front of empty stadiums.
  • canceling on-campus and off-campus recruiting visits.

That stuff is all pretty much unprecedented. I listen to the Joe Rogan Experience pretty regularly, and this was an interesting one:

Mark Dantonio and Michigan State are facing some new allegations (LINK).

Hit the jump for more.

Peyton Ramsey is going from one middling Big Ten team (Indiana) to another:

Showboating pisses me off to no end:

I had this debate recently, but is Michael Vick a Hall of Famer? I say yes.

63 comments

  1. Avatar
    Comments: 120
    Joined: 9/13/2015
    AC1997
    Mar 11, 2020 at 11:56 PM

    I’d like to hear your argument in favor of Vick being in the HOF. We will ignore the off-field issues for this discussion and I will concede that he was a generational talent when it comes to excitement.

    But he was only slightly over .500 as a starter; he completed well under 60% of his passes; he only exceeded 20 passing TDs once; his YPA was mediocre at best; and he doesn’t have any clear playoff success to hang his hat on. Heck, he was really only a regular starter for about 7 years when you consider suspension, injury, and decline.

    His rushing stats do make a difference and were dynamic for most of his career. And that’s what at least gets this debate started…but I don’t think it is nearly enough.

    • Thunder
      Comments: 3578
      Joined: 7/13/2015
      Mar 12, 2020 at 8:44 AM

      The off-the-field stuff doesn’t matter much to me. I mean, it’s obviously not good, but I think it’s pretty irrelevant to the conversation since it had nothing to do with football.

      Vick was a long-term, extremely popular player who put butts in the seats and eyeballs on TV broadcasts. And not in a Johnny Manziel, flash-in-the-pan way, but in a sustained sense. He went to the Pro Bowl 4 times and won NFL Comeback Player of the Year. He’s the all-time leading rusher from his position in NFL history. And one other key is that it’s the Hall of FAME, not the Hall of Great Passing Statistics.

      Joe Namath is in the HOF, and he threw about the same number of touchdowns but with a 173-220 TD-to-INT ratio. Granted, Namath won one Super Bowl, but there are other quarterbacks who won a Super Bowl but aren’t in the HOF (Trent Dilfer, Phil Simms, Mark Rypien, etc.). On the other side, Dan Marino had some great passing stats, never won a Super Bowl, and got in the HOF.

      So while Vick didn’t put up the greatest passing numbers, his overall persona and some of his stats add up to a HOF-worthy career, in my opinion.

      • Lanknows
        Comments: 5876
        Joined: 8/11/2015
        Lanknows
        Mar 12, 2020 at 11:23 PM

        Completely agree. Surprised to see this argument from a Denard-hater though. You make an excellent case.

        • Thunder
          Comments: 3578
          Joined: 7/13/2015
          Mar 13, 2020 at 7:57 AM

          Apples to oranges.

          I’m not arguing that he’s a good QB. Vick wasn’t a great QB, and neither was Denard.

          However, they do belong in a Hall of FAME.

          • Lanknows
            Comments: 5876
            Joined: 8/11/2015
            Lanknows
            Mar 13, 2020 at 5:42 PM

            Are you saying that HOF is not about merit as a player?

            • Thunder
              Comments: 3578
              Joined: 7/13/2015
              Mar 14, 2020 at 7:53 AM

              I answered that above.

          • Lanknows
            Comments: 5876
            Joined: 8/11/2015
            Lanknows
            Mar 13, 2020 at 5:42 PM

            I personally do not think Denard belongs in the NFL HOF.

          • Lanknows
            Comments: 5876
            Joined: 8/11/2015
            Lanknows
            Mar 14, 2020 at 12:11 PM

            I don’t understand the distinction. Aren’t they famous for their exceptional play at QB? Vick became infamous for something else but you said you don’t care about off-field things (except TV ratings, media attention, ticket sales, etc.)

            Anyway. Answer this:

            How can you go to the NFL Pro Bowl 4 times at QB and not be a great QB?

            Corollary: How can you be the offensive player of the year in the Big Ten and be “not good” at the position you play?

            • Thunder
              Comments: 3578
              Joined: 7/13/2015
              Mar 14, 2020 at 1:41 PM

              “Currently, players are voted into the Pro Bowl by the coaches, the players themselves, and the fans. Each group’s ballots count for one third of the votes.”

              It’s a popularity contest. Going to the Pro Bowl doesn’t necessarily mean that you are the best at your position.

              For the hundredth time, you have to be able to pass the ball well in order to win in football for the past 20 years. Basically, every since the Nebraska dynasty dropped off. Quarterbacks who can’t pass the ball well don’t succeed at the highest level, whether that’s in the CFP or the NFL. Who won the Super Bowl? The good passer (Mahomes), not the guy whose best chance of success was handing off the ball. Who won in the College Football Playoff? Joe Burrow and Trevor Lawrence (two presumable #1 overall draft picks). Who won the Super Bowl between the Panthers and Broncos? Peyton Manning, not Cam Newton.

              If Denard Robinson were a good quarterback, then he (and Pat White and Scott Frost and Eric Crouch) would have at least had a shot at playing QB in the NFL rather than being immediately forced to change positions.

              • Avatar
                Comments: 1267
                Joined: 8/13/2015
                Roanman
                Mar 15, 2020 at 8:19 AM

                You knew I’d get into this one sooner or later.

                I do think that a distinction can be made between good passer and good Quarterback.

                Pretty much everybody here knows my opinion of Denard … great QB then great QB saddled with moronic coaching … poor passer during both of those phases.

                The kid from Chip, whose name I’m too lazy to hunt down because Thunder knows it, who won it all for the Buckeyes was not a great passer by any stretch. Solid QB, game manager, with an outstanding college RB that would alternately pound you then kill you. That kid could throw it just well enough to keep your safeties from selling out to stop the run.

                The same is true of the Alabama kid with the drop dead gorgeous girlfriend.

                • Avatar
                  Comments: 1267
                  Joined: 8/13/2015
                  Roanman
                  Mar 15, 2020 at 8:20 AM

                  The pro game is a different thing.

                • Thunder
                  Comments: 3578
                  Joined: 7/13/2015
                  Mar 15, 2020 at 8:38 AM

                  The kid from Chip? Are you talking about Craig Krenzel? I thought he went to Henry Ford.

                  The guy from Alabama you’re talking about is A.J. McCarron. He and his then girlfriend, Katherine Webb, got married later. But yeah, game managers.

                • Avatar
                  Comments: 1267
                  Joined: 8/13/2015
                  Roanman
                  Mar 15, 2020 at 5:29 PM

                  You’re right, his dad was at Chip.

            • Lanknows
              Comments: 5876
              Joined: 8/11/2015
              Lanknows
              Mar 15, 2020 at 1:53 PM

              So I guess the question is what made Vick so popular? I was thinking it was how good he was at QB.

              You attribute it to ‘persona’ and I honestly don’t know what that means for a guy who is reviled by many for his off-field decisions – while he was still playing.

              I get the distinction between passer and runner, but there are different ways to get the job done. Especially at the college level.
              where Scott Frost won a national championship throwing for 5 TDs and 4 INTs. Season totals.

              Maybe what you are saying is that highlight plays can get you in the HOF even if you are bad?

              IMO Denard (at the college level) and Vick (college and NFL) were incredibly productive as QBs and deserve to be in the HOF for how they played at QB regardless of off-field stuff, media attention, etc. They earned it based on how they played. How good they were. At their position. Which was QB.

              • Thunder
                Comments: 3578
                Joined: 7/13/2015
                Mar 15, 2020 at 2:01 PM

                Speed. We like fast people. Usain Bolt, Bo Jackson, Darrell Green, Chris Johnson, Deion Sanders, Tyreek Hill, Michael Vick, etc. We’re fascinated by fast people. I am, too.

                Scott Frost was in a different age of football. That’s when triple option football still won national championships, when you could run the ball, play defense, and win. That’s not the case anymore. It hasn’t been the case for about the past 20 years. Off the top of my head, the last time that worked in the NFL was the Baltimore Ravens in the early 2000’s, Ohio State in college in the early 2000’s, etc.

                • Lanknows
                  Comments: 5876
                  Joined: 8/11/2015
                  Lanknows
                  Mar 15, 2020 at 2:48 PM

                  Plenty of fast people are not successful at football. Remember Teric Jones? Remember Drake Harris?

                  It takes a great deal of skill beyond that to be a good QB.

                  JT Barrett was a mediocre passer but was 1st team all conference 3 times at QB and holds all kinds of Big Ten records and won a ton of games. A lot of that success is due to his running skills. He has never played in the NFL.

                  Lamar Jackson’s college career was very similar to Denard Robinson’s. He is transitioning quite nicely to the NFL. Yes, because he is a better passer, but his legs are a big part of his success there too.

                  I don’t now, nor have I ever disputed that you need to be able to pass well to win big in the NFL. But if you run it well, you don’t need to pass as well. Both matter.

                  Vick did both – and that’s why he made the pro bowl all those times.

                  Denard did both in college – and that’s why he produced so much and got all those accolades.

                  Being able to run the ball at QB isn’t just a shiny thing to distract superficial fools. It helps you win games. It matters.

                • Thunder
                  Comments: 3578
                  Joined: 7/13/2015
                  Mar 15, 2020 at 3:03 PM

                  This isn’t really relevant, IMO. I know not everyone who’s fast is good at football. For guys who are good enough at other aspects to reach the highest levels, we are enamored by speed.

                  Being able to run the ball helps you win games…except big games. This is my point. At SOME POINT, you have to throw the ball successfully to win big games. Vick didn’t win big games, Denard didn’t win big games, etc.

                  You and I have been discussing this for years, and at no point have you (or anyone else) provided an example of a run-first QB who has won big games at a consistent level or won a national championship/Super Bowl. Not Cam Newton, not Braxton Miller, not Denard Robinson, not Marcus Mariota (yet), not JT Barrett, not Michael Vick, etc. The best example you came up with so far was Scott Frost and his 5 TD/4 INT campaign…in 1997, which is 23 years ago.

                • Lanknows
                  Comments: 5876
                  Joined: 8/11/2015
                  Lanknows
                  Mar 16, 2020 at 6:47 PM

                  News to me that JT Barrett did not win any big games.

                  News to the 2010 national champions that Cam Newton didn’t.

                  The 2014 national champs will have to let Braxton Miller know he wasn’t their QB I guess.

                  Vince Young’s national championship ring must have been lost along this journey.

                  Are Tim Tebow and Chris Leak too old to matter too?

                  Hmmmm
                  The disconnect with reality has me thinking there’s some hardwired bias here.

                • Thunder
                  Comments: 3578
                  Joined: 7/13/2015
                  Mar 16, 2020 at 7:10 PM

                  57.2%, 49 TD, 39 INT
                  61.8%, 44 TD, 28 INT
                  66.4%, 88 TD, 16 INT
                  61.4%, 88 TD, 42 INT
                  65.4%, 30 TD, 7 INT

                  Those are the numbers for the guys you mentioned (in order: Denard Robinson, Vince Young, Tim Tebow, Chris Leak, Cam Newton).

                  Also noteworthy: Every single one of those guys – other than Denard – got a chance to play QB in the NFL.

                  Newton hasn’t won big in the NFL, and his completion percentage is 59.6% as a pro. When he has needed to throw to win, he hasn’t got the job done.

                  Braxton Miller WASN’T the QB for the 2014 national champs. (And it’s noteworthy that he immediately became a WR in the NFL.)

                • Lanknows
                  Comments: 5876
                  Joined: 8/11/2015
                  Lanknows
                  Mar 17, 2020 at 6:08 PM

                  So you want to change your argument to those guys who won tons of big games in college are better passers than Denard?

              • Lanknows
                Comments: 5876
                Joined: 8/11/2015
                Lanknows
                Mar 15, 2020 at 2:34 PM

                Taking this back to Denard vs Rudock since it’s relevant to defining a good QB.

                Denard was a great runner and a mediocre passer. Rudock was a very good passer and a mediocre runner. Who was the better QB? It has nothing to do with fame IMO.

                Rudock was more accurate – no question about that. But Denard was far more successful in college at QB. He generated more yards, more TDs, had superior YPA and passer rating, was a heisman finalist, had higher ranked offenses, had higher ranked teams, won more games, managed to beat Ohio State, etc. etc. etc.

                • Thunder
                  Comments: 3578
                  Joined: 7/13/2015
                  Mar 15, 2020 at 2:43 PM

                  That’s all great, but Denard Robinson isn’t winning a national championship because he can’t throw the ball, and Jake Rudock might if he has the right supporting cast.

                  Give me the guy who can win it all vs. the guy who can’t.

                  P.S. The trump card, as always, is that Denard Robinson spent 4 years in the NFL…as a running back. Jake Rudock has spent 4 years in the NFL…as a quarterback.

                • Lanknows
                  Comments: 5876
                  Joined: 8/11/2015
                  Lanknows
                  Mar 15, 2020 at 2:54 PM

                  Denard Robinson got closer to winning a national championship than Jake Rudock despite never having as good of a defense.

                  The trump card for who the better QB in college is what happened in college. And that’s ignoring that Rudock had 5 years and far better coaching.

                • Thunder
                  Comments: 3578
                  Joined: 7/13/2015
                  Mar 15, 2020 at 3:04 PM

                  I disagree (about the trump card). Oh well.

                • Lanknows
                  Comments: 5876
                  Joined: 8/11/2015
                  Lanknows
                  Mar 15, 2020 at 2:55 PM

                  Rudock was also surrounded by NFL talent the one good year that he had. Denard carried the offense (and in 2010 the team) on his back.

                • Thunder
                  Comments: 3578
                  Joined: 7/13/2015
                  Mar 15, 2020 at 3:04 PM

                  Denard carried them…to a 5-7 record.

                • Lanknows
                  Comments: 5876
                  Joined: 8/11/2015
                  Lanknows
                  Mar 16, 2020 at 6:34 PM

                  Yes let’s ignore the red-shirt and just compare Denard’s first season with Rudock’s (freshman vs sophomore).

                  Rudock was busy not playing a snap on a 4-8 team. He sat behind a guy who threw 7 TDs and 8 INTs on the year.

                • Thunder
                  Comments: 3578
                  Joined: 7/13/2015
                  Mar 16, 2020 at 7:15 PM

                  This is a great example of cherry-picking data.

                  I would like to compare Andy Dalton to Tom Brady. In their rookie years, respectively, one threw 20 TD and the other threw 3 total passes, completing a mere 33% of them. Ergo, Andy Dalton is a better QB than Tom Brady.

                • Lanknows
                  Comments: 5876
                  Joined: 8/11/2015
                  Lanknows
                  Mar 17, 2020 at 6:06 PM

                  Denard was better than Rudock at every step of his college career:

                  freshman
                  sophomore
                  junior
                  senior

                  Denard didn’t get a 5th year to transfer somewhere else to shine because he stuck it out at Michigan.

                  Even still – Denard was more productive in every meaningful measure — including YPA and passing rating for his college career and number of times beating OSU.

                  But yes, there’s completion percentage. Who is cherry picking?

                • Thunder
                  Comments: 3578
                  Joined: 7/13/2015
                  Mar 17, 2020 at 7:05 PM

                  It’s noteworthy that you had to specify COLLEGE career. Because when it came time to play real football, people were like, “Uh…yeah…we gotta make him a RB or something.”

  2. Avatar
    Comments: 16
    Joined: 1/16/2019
    Blue83
    Mar 12, 2020 at 10:51 AM

    Perhaps you can answer this. If UM is suspending all classes and gatherings of more than 100 people, how can the team proceed with any Spring practices? There are clearly more than 100 participants. Do they break the team down into smaller groups? Is the football team an exception to the new rule?

    • Thunder
      Comments: 3578
      Joined: 7/13/2015
      Mar 12, 2020 at 1:15 PM

      I can’t answer that. Sorry.

  3. Avatar
    Comments: 413
    Joined: 12/24/2016
    INTJohn
    Mar 12, 2020 at 10:42 PM

    Yep, lets ALL OF US! The entire human specie, lets all of us just qwit fukin livin cause shit man otherwise we might fukin die!

    Whatta Kroc of shit. All of humanity has turned into a bunch of pure ass pussies.
    Sooner or later something murders all of us. I don’t care who you are ,where you are or wah ever. Sooner or later something murders all of us.

    This reaction to the this entire glorified flu outbreak is just a pure & simple Kroc of shit. I hope all of you decide to just qwit on Life, check the fuk out and leave the goddam planet to those of us that actually think its a really cool & great place to LIVE MY FUCKING LIFE! Our whatever is left of it despite what ever may eventually murder me!

    Fuk this entire Authority based system driven by a ridiculous fear of LIFE!
    INTJohn

    • Avatar
      Comments: 413
      Joined: 12/24/2016
      INTJohn
      Mar 12, 2020 at 11:31 PM

      And to elaborate:
      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X29lF43mUlo

      Enjoy you fuking pussies.

      • GKblue
        Comments: 351
        Joined: 8/11/2015
        GKblue
        Mar 13, 2020 at 5:54 AM

        “Your immune system needs practice.” – George Carlin

        Too bad you didn’t start and end with this, sometimes you just have to laugh.

  4. Lanknows
    Comments: 5876
    Joined: 8/11/2015
    Lanknows
    Mar 17, 2020 at 6:22 PM

    You can’t win big in college football without a QB who can threaten in the run anymore. Those days are over.

    The last last 7 championship winning QBs:

    Joe Burrow, Tua, Jalen Hurts, JT Barrett, Jameis Winston and Deshaun Watson were all listed as “dual-threat” recruits by 247 because they can run the ball.

    The only one who wasn’t is Trevor Lawrence who just ran for 563 yards and 9 TDs last year.

    You need a guy who can pass. You need a guy who can run. You need both. You can’t win big otherwise. You can’t win a national title with Jake Rudock as your QB. You just can’t.

    The last pocket passer who lacked mobility to won a national championship was AJ McCarron nearly a decade ago. Those days are gone.

    • Avatar
      Comments: 1814
      Joined: 1/19/2016
      je93
      Mar 17, 2020 at 7:34 PM

      This is a completely different argument. Classic Lank

      • Lanknows
        Comments: 5876
        Joined: 8/11/2015
        Lanknows
        Mar 23, 2020 at 9:22 AM

        Yes it is.

    • Thunder
      Comments: 3578
      Joined: 7/13/2015
      Mar 17, 2020 at 8:05 PM

      Sigh…

      Okay, I’ll pick these apart one by one.

      First, Jake Rudock averaged 2.86 YPC with 4 rushing TD in an offense at Michigan that was not even designed for a running QB. He had 12 career rushing TD. (2.9 YPC, 12 TD for his career)

      Joe Burrow is a decent runner; he averaged 3.15 and 3.2 yards/carry at LSU. Is he a notably better runner than Rudock? No. He averaged 3.2 YPC and had 5 rushing TD in one of the best offenses in college history. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for your running QB theory. (3.2 YPC, 13 TD for Burrow’s career)

      Jalen Hurts was replaced in the championship game by a guy who could actually throw, specifically for that reason. This actually goes entirely against your argument. Hurts is being talked about as a 2nd or maybe 3rd day pick, while Tua Tagovailoa is probably going in the top 5 even with a busted hip. (Tagovailoa: 3.2 YPC and 9 TD for his career)

      Maybe the third time is the charm on the Ohio State thing? JT Barrett was replaced by Cardale Jones, who actually won the whole thing. Did he run the ball well? Nah, he had 21 carries for 38 yards. Did he throw the ball well? He completed 69% of his passes and had a passer efficiency rating of 163. (Jones: 4.00 YPC, 4 TD for his career)

      I don’t care what Jameis Winston was labeled as by some recruiting site; he has always been sloppy. He ran a 4.97 forty. Whoever labeled him as a dual-threat was grossly mistaken. (2.0 YPC, 7 TD for his career)

      You got me with the Deshaun Watson thing. I mean, he’s a good runner and…oh wait, I said you have to be able to win big games by passing the ball! He’s averaging about 4,000 yards and 26 TD in two seasons in the NFL.

      “The last pocket passer who lacked mobility to win a national championship was”…again, you’re wrong. Jake Coker was Alabama’s QB in 2015. He ran for -20 yards in a 5-point win over Clemson. How well did he throw the ball? He completed 64% of his passes for 335 yards, 13.4 yards/attempt, and 2 TD in that game. (Coker had 1.0 YPC and 2 TD for his career)

      So…you’re just flat-out wrong. The guys who have won have not been exceptional runners. Jake Coker, Joe Burrow, Tua Tagovailoa, Jameis Winston, and Cardale Jones are nothing special when it comes to running the ball. They are generally good athletes, as most quarterbacks are coming out of high school/college, but not significantly ahead of Rudock as a runner.

      Order of these QBs by YPC:
      Watson 4.4
      Jones 4.0
      Burrow 3.2
      Tagovailoa 3.2
      RUDOCK 2.9
      Winston 2.0
      Coker 1.0

      Order of these QBs by TD:
      Watson 26
      Burrow 13
      RUDOCK 12
      Tagovailoa 9
      Winston 7
      Jones 4
      Coker 2

      So Rudock is #5 and #3 in those respective categories, out of seven.

      • Lanknows
        Comments: 5876
        Joined: 8/11/2015
        Lanknows
        Mar 23, 2020 at 9:27 AM

        I did forget about Coker. You got me on that.

        The rest of your argument is missing the point. You don’t have to be an exceptional runner or an exceptional passer. Jake Coker shows this.

        Teams win big games.

        QB is the most important position for a Team.

        How good a QB is depends on a lot of things including how well you run or threaten to run.

        • Avatar
          Comments: 1814
          Joined: 1/19/2016
          je93
          Mar 23, 2020 at 10:44 AM

          I seem to recall an argument against the team concept, in one of the UM QB all time threads ?

          “Teams win big games”

          • Lanknows
            Comments: 5876
            Joined: 8/11/2015
            Lanknows
            Mar 23, 2020 at 11:36 AM

            What was that now?

      • Lanknows
        Comments: 5876
        Joined: 8/11/2015
        Lanknows
        Mar 23, 2020 at 9:31 AM

        You can dismiss recruiting if you want. I’m not going to. Those guys get categorized based on how well they can run.

        • Thunder
          Comments: 3578
          Joined: 7/13/2015
          Mar 23, 2020 at 10:05 AM

          Jameis Winston isn’t a good runner. He never has been, at the college or the NFL level. It’s disingenuous to imply that he’s a good runner, regardless of what a recruiting site said a long time ago.

          • Lanknows
            Comments: 5876
            Joined: 8/11/2015
            Lanknows
            Mar 23, 2020 at 2:58 PM

            This was also some bullshit. EDITED BY: Thunder

            • Thunder
              Comments: 3578
              Joined: 7/13/2015
              Mar 23, 2020 at 3:16 PM

              Yeah, man, you’re exactly right. In a post where I argue for Michael Vick to be in the Hall of Fame, it totally makes sense to say I’m racist because I say a guy who didn’t play QB in the NFL wasn’t a good QB.

              Jake Rudock is in the NFL as a QB. Denard Robinson is out of the NFL and never played QB in the NFL.

              I wonder if maybe you’re just an asshole.

              • Avatar
                Comments: 1814
                Joined: 1/19/2016
                je93
                Mar 23, 2020 at 9:07 PM

                Haha. Classic Lank

                Don’t melt down sir, now is not the time!

          • Lanknows
            Comments: 5876
            Joined: 8/11/2015
            Lanknows
            Mar 23, 2020 at 3:59 PM

            This used to be a Lanknows post full of bullshit. EDITED BY: Thunder

            • Thunder
              Comments: 3578
              Joined: 7/13/2015
              Mar 23, 2020 at 5:04 PM

              Imagine that. You come into a thread insinuating that people who disagree with you are just racist, and you expect that people won’t hold you accountable for your shitty opinions.

              Yards don’t have to come through the air to set records. You need to be able to pass to WIN. That’s clear with Denard Robinson. Good numbers in 2010, not many wins. That was also the case with our high school teams. We set all kinds of records, but we didn’t win big games when we had to be able to pass the ball.

              What year did we go the farthest in the playoffs? THE YEAR WE HAD THE D-II QUARTERBACK WHO COULD THROW!

              I call it like I see it. You’ve complimented me for that before. So I’m calling it like I see it: You’re being an asshole, and you have shitty takes just because we disagree on whether a guy who didn’t play QB in the NFL was a good QB or not.

              If you don’t agree (and you don’t), fine. That doesn’t give you good reason to be a dick.

            • Lanknows
              Comments: 5876
              Joined: 8/11/2015
              Lanknows
              Mar 23, 2020 at 6:02 PM

              No, Lanknows, you don’t get to come here and spread your bullshit. EDITED BY: Thunder

        • Avatar
          Comments: 1814
          Joined: 1/19/2016
          je93
          Mar 23, 2020 at 10:45 AM

          Don’t dismiss recruiting. But don’t set expectations based on recruiting ?

          • Lanknows
            Comments: 5876
            Joined: 8/11/2015
            Lanknows
            Mar 23, 2020 at 2:55 PM

            I have no problem setting reasonable expectations based on recruiting ratings. I have a problem with ignoring history in the process of trying to blame a teenager for your upset feelings.

    • Thunder
      Comments: 3578
      Joined: 7/13/2015
      Mar 17, 2020 at 8:26 PM

      The REAL question we’re getting at here, since we’re lost in the weeds is…

      Has anyone in the last 20 years won a national championship with such poor passing numbers as Denard Robinson (57.7%, 5:4 TD-to-INT ratio)? The answer is a resounding…yes. If you go all the way back to 2003, Craig Krenzel averaged 56.8% completions with a 4:3 TD-to-INT ratio for Ohio State. It’s notable that he did actually play quarterback in the NFL.

      The last time a national championship quarterback was so bad at QB that he wasn’t allowed to play QB in the NFL? You have to go back to 1997 and Scott Frost.

      Meanwhile, multiple national championship-winning quarterbacks were presumably worse at the QB position, because Jake Coker and Jason White weren’t drafted, while Matt Mauck was drafted in the 7th round, a round after Jake Rudock.

      So can you win in modern football with Jake Rudock? It appears so. Can you win with Denard Robinson? It appears not.

      • Thunder
        Comments: 3578
        Joined: 7/13/2015
        Mar 18, 2020 at 2:12 PM

        Coincidentally, I was listening to the “Geoff Schwartz is Smarter than You” podcast (episode 53) this morning, and he made the same point as me about run-oriented quarterbacks.

      • Lanknows
        Comments: 5876
        Joined: 8/11/2015
        Lanknows
        Mar 23, 2020 at 9:43 AM

        Alabama won a national championship with Jalen Hurts as their primary QB. They beat Clemson before losing in the final the year before.

        Jalen Hurts passer rating in 2016 and 2017: 139 and 150

        Denard Robinson’s passer rating in 2010 and 2011: 150 and 140.

        Jake Coker’s passer rating at Alabama: 142 and 147

        • Thunder
          Comments: 3578
          Joined: 7/13/2015
          Mar 23, 2020 at 10:17 AM

          Unfortunately, I don’t think there’s a lot of data from 2010, 2011, and 2012 on downfield passing success, but Denard’s best season was 2010 when, under Rich Rodriguez, he was throwing a very simple route tree and letting the receivers do most of the work. I’ve made this point before, but it was reinforced in a book I recently read.

          Rich Hargitt has written several books on RPOs, the Air Raid offense, etc., and he talked about how they count their bubbles and other first-level RPOs with their running stats, because it’s essentially an old-school triple option. Georgia Tech’s slot-backs under Paul Johnson got the ball on pitches and tosses to the outside, and it counted in their run game. The fullback was the one who got most of the inside runs. In Rich Rodriguez’s offense (at least at Michigan), the “pitch” is just an overhanded throw a little farther to the outside rather than a chest pass.

          So it’s still not a convincing argument, just like it hasn’t been for the last 8 or 9 years. Darryl Stonum, Martavious Odoms, and Roy Roundtree catching bubbles or even second-level RPOs do not mean Denard was a good passer.

          And yes, you can ding other quarterbacks who are in similar offenses for the same thing. Other QBs have inflated statistics, too, at times, when they’re throwing a ton of bubbles and quick screens.

          P.S. This whole conversation is kind of funny to me, because I’ve worked for some good coaches over the years. When those coaches didn’t have a good QB, they specifically used that time to install an RPO-oriented offense. And the offenses set records, helped guys win player of the year, etc. because it makes it look like you can pass the ball. When we’ve had guys who can actually pass the ball, those coaches stick more to a traditional “pro-style” offense (spread, I-formation). We had a QB go DII running an I-formation offense, but all his passing totals were destroyed by a guy who was tiny and threw bubbles all the time.

          • Lanknows
            Comments: 5876
            Joined: 8/11/2015
            Lanknows
            Mar 23, 2020 at 11:46 AM

            I do agree the stats are misleading here. Sacks shouldn’t count with rush stats and bubbles should.

          • Lanknows
            Comments: 5876
            Joined: 8/11/2015
            Lanknows
            Mar 23, 2020 at 12:24 PM

            This is tautology. Install one kind of offense for your QB because he is not good. Install another kind of offense and it means your QB is good. Isn’t what matters the results? Or is just all about style points and elegance to you?

            Denard’s passing – aided by his running – was very good for a sophomore. Compare apples to apples to the sophomore year of other QBs. 150 QBR, 8.8 YPA, 63% completion percentage.

            Unlike most QBs his stats din’t get better in his upperclass seasons. What happened after 2010? He never got back to those numbers. I think we can draw a causal relationship with other factors beyond Denard’s control.

            On bubbles – great, it’s a piece of cake throw – so why isn’t Jake Rudock throwing them as much if it’s so easy. Why isn’t he able to match the YPA that Denard did? Why is he unable to match the yards and TDs that Denard’s offense did?

            Big games is where big PASSERS come through. So why couldn’t Rudock beat Ohio State with so much more NFL talent around him? Why’d Jake Rudock throw for 168 yards and 0 TDs against MSU? Denard was often knocked for how he got shut down against MSU — so did Rudock. That’s what good defenses do.

            But let’s get back to comparing a bad QB to one of the best passing seasons in Michigan history by Rudock.

            Denard AS A SOPHMORE was as effective at PASSING THE BALL as Jake Rudock was in his FIFTH year.

            QBR 150 vs 142
            YPA 8.8 vs 7.8
            % 63 vs 64
            Pass Yards 2600 vs 3000
            Pass TDs 18 vs 20
            INTs 11 vs 9

            These are the facts. You can argue this doesn’t count or that doesn’t count all you want. Denard had a higher ranked offense that year (and dramatically worse defense). Rudock never matched that. Not in an individual context nor in a team context.

            In fact, he lost his job and had to chase a transition-created opening elsewhere. Meanwhile Denard chose loyalty to Michigan and stuck it out despite, some let’s just say less than ideal coaching options. That should mean more to a Michigan fan than style points.

            Denard did more than Rudock with less talent around him. Why – because of his overall package of QB skills.

            Denard was a better college QB than Jake Rudock. It’s not even very close because the one thing Denard is supposedly not good at he outproduced Rudock in — Passing.

            Their paths diverged at the NFL level because Jake Rudock is a better passer. Great for Jake but by no measure was he a better college quarterback. Not team success, not offensive success, not individual stats.

            • Thunder
              Comments: 3578
              Joined: 7/13/2015
              Mar 23, 2020 at 1:48 PM

              *sigh* I already showed you how dumb it is to compare same-year-to-same-year performance. By that measure Tate Forcier is a better QB than Tom Brady, and…oh, wait…also better than Denard Robinson!

              I also already explained to you in a considerable amount of detail that Denard Robinson was playing in what amounted to a triple option offense, while Rudock was not. It gives the QB credit for “pitching” the ball. If Denard Robinson is a good passer because he pitched the ball, it’s not at all ridiculous to say Scott Frost and Eric Crouch deserve to have their passing numbers upgraded for all those times they tossed the ball out there to their option men.

              If Denard were a decent passer, he would have been afforded even a slight opportunity to play quarterback in the NFL. He had zero ability to go through his progressions, he was a one-read guy (if this, then that), and he turned the ball over a ton. Chad Henne threw the ball 1,387 times with 37 interceptions, and Denard Robinson topped him in interceptions on just 747 attempts.

              Denard Robinson was a good triple option quarterback. That’s it. There’s a reason almost none of those guys are successful in the NFL in the modern era, such as Frost, Crouch, Reggie Ball, etc.: they can’t pass.

              • Lanknows
                Comments: 5876
                Joined: 8/11/2015
                Lanknows
                Mar 23, 2020 at 2:50 PM

                Jake Rudock can’t run a triple option offense. So he can’t create those easy passes. So he can’t be as good of a quarterback.

                If you want to use Jake Rudock’s NFL career (24 yards passing) to argue that he was a better college quarterback, you can, but it’s dumb.

                Rudock was a better passer – as a 5th year player, surrounded by NFL talent, coached by Jim Harbaugh, than Denard Robinson was. He was never a better college quarterback.

        • Lanknows
          Comments: 5876
          Joined: 8/11/2015
          Lanknows
          Mar 23, 2020 at 11:45 AM

          Alabama can win with a dual threat QB or they can win with a pocket passer. They’ve done both.

          Saban has seen the game evolve and has adjusted accordingly. He went from never taking dual-threat QBs to taking mostly dual-threat QBs. The percentage of pure pocket guys in the NFL is dropping too, even though there is greater emphasis on passing there.

          To be a really good QB you have to run. To be a good QB you have to pass.

          People like Denard Robinson, Mike Vick, JT Barrett, and Jalen Hurts do both well. Denard wasn’t AS good of passer as those guys and he was certainly not the player Vick was, but he was a better quarterback than a lot of people who pass the ball better than him.

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