Michigan beat a top-10 team. I normally don’t pay much attention to rankings. I pay attention to teams. So when people make a big deal about “Jim Harbaugh has a 1-10 record against top-10 teams at Michigan” or whatever the hell that stat is/was, it just doesn’t mean much to me. What’s his overall record? And has he beaten PSU, MSU, Wisconsin, and OSU? And Notre Dame? Those are the teams you can count on year in and year out to be good to great, and those are the measuring stick games. Sometimes they’re the top-10 squads and sometimes they’re not, but rankings are so subjective that they just don’t matter to me.
Hit the jump for more.
Hassan Haskins is impressive. There are a lot of Michigan fans, recruiting gurus, prognosticators, etc. who might owe Haskins an apology, including me. I initially gave him a TTB Rating of 78 and then bumped him down to a 74 with a comparison to De’Veon Smith. From his commitment post (LINK):
I’ll probably take some flak for this because people don’t understand how words work, but from a running style standpoint, Haskins reminds me a lot of Adrian Peterson. He’s not as big or as strong or as fast, but he runs with the same style and idea of physicality. He’s not a blazing runner or amazingly elusive, but he has good vision and power.
Smith’s closest game to this one was probably his 12-carry, 107-yard performance against Penn State in 2016, but Haskins’s 20-carry, 149-yard performance in the pouring rain – when the Fighting Irish knew Michigan was going to run almost every down – is significantly more impressive.
Ed Warinner’s magic potion requires six weeks to work. I’m convinced now that the Warinner magic just takes half a season to percolate in the massive gastrointestinal tracks of Michigan’s offensive linemen. Michigan has rushed for 3 touchdowns each of the past three weeks, averaging 6.15 yards per carry (Illinois), 3.44 (Penn State), and 5.32 (Notre Dame) in that time. Penn State is #2 nationally in rush defense and gives up 1.99 yards per carry on the season. Notre Dame’s pass rush was getting home a little bit on Saturday night, but the offensive line was blowing holes open in the defensive front.
Cam McGrone made 12 tackles. That’s a pretty good number. The second-place guy on the team had 5. McGrone was all over the field, tracking down screens, spying on the quarterback, chasing sweeps, etc. This was probably his best game in a Michigan uniform, and he was already playing pretty well the past couple weeks. Michigan didn’t get a ton of tackles for loss (5 total) because a lot of Notre Dame runs seemed to inch just barely past the line of scrimmage. The Fighting Irish ran 31 times for 47 yards. In the last five games, Michigan’s opponents have run for 259 yards, or 55.8 yards per game.
Will Jordan Glasgow be the third Glasgow brother to get drafted? I asked this question on Twitter, and the response was a resounding “no.” And I get it; I wasn’t suggesting that he should. But he was a walk-on and underrated by many, and now he has 55 tackles and 4 sacks for one of the top defenses in the country. His overall numbers weren’t great on Saturday night (4 tackles, 1 QB hurry), but he was still all over the field.
Why did Shea Patterson throw left-handed out of bounds? More than anything else, that crappy little throw when he was about to get sacked signals a short NFL career – if any – for Patterson. I don’t like to place too much importance on an individual play, but I immediately had a flashback to Devin Gardner in 2014. You just don’t see NFL-level quarterbacks make panicked plays like that. In my opinion, Gardner was a better quarterback than Patterson – bigger, faster, more athletic, better deep ball, more accurate – but his decision-making prevented him from even making a practice squad.
This ain’t pass interference.
Can we all just agree this is one of the more embarrassing pass interference calls of all time? I mean…come on. This is a joke. pic.twitter.com/2m2ybtTfSb
— Jordan Strack (@JordanStrack) October 27, 2019
It nullified a legitimate interception and led to Notre Dame’s only non-garbage touchdown. Gross.
You need to login in order to vote
I know you really like Ronnie Bell. But Mike Sainristil should be playing instead of him. What a waste to have him on the bench all year.
You need to login in order to vote
It wasn’t a waste. The hype on him was way overblown, and he has not been good enough to get real playing time. Certainly not better than Bell. He looked good when his friends and teammates were covering him, but when it’s real competition, being a freshman WR gets lots tougher.
You need to login in order to vote
Jim Harbaugh basically said a week or two ago that Sainristil’s hands have been the problem. Basically, he’s been dropping a lot of balls in practice. He had a drop last night, too.
Also, Bell is our leading receiver…so…your comment doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. I could understand if you were saying Sainristil should play instead of Tarik Black or Luke Schoonmaker or something, but you’re literally talking about removing our leading receiver for a guy who now has something like 4 catches.
You need to login in order to vote
I guess I don’t believe that Bell is better than either Collins or DPJ. To say he’s the #1 WR means he’s better than them. There’s no way, right? So I don’t believe he’s better than Sainristil either–no way I believe it, or see it in how he plays.
There was something wrong with the way things were run on the offense up until the past few weeks. The way that things were run made Bell end up being the #1 WR. The TD catches by DPJ and Collins last night were something I don’t think Ronnie Bell has it in him to do. The catch that DPJ when he came out from behind 2 defenders and suddenly saw the ball coming to him, and made the catch, is something few WRs can do. Going to Collins and DPJ, and away from Bell, has made the offense looks fantastic. Fans are happy again. The team looked the best it’s been since the 2016 season.
Michigan going away from focusing on him has made the team much better. Michigan was not doing well with Bell being the top WR. He’s a #4, or #5 WR. That’s more of a correct perspective on him.
You can read Jim Harbaugh’s comments in a different way. Bell had been around longer. So a known level of trust had been there for the coaches over Sainristil. But I am sure that has changed now. Trust had to be built in a new player. I am certain last night was a big step in accomplishing that. It’s true Sainristil had a drop. But how many drops has Bell had?
Sainristil is 10 times the athlete that Bell is. That should show more as time passes. I LOVE what I saw from Sainristil last night. He’s got some kind of internal plumb line in him that keeps him upright when he’s getting hit. And man is he fast! He has the makings of a superstar.
Now I’m looking forward to Cornelius Johnson to playing more. What a great talent he is!!
Ronnie Bell’s story is a nice rallying point. And he’s a great backup! But I think emotions from circumstances have clouded how good he really is.
Building an elite offense will be done with players like Collins, DPJ, Sainristil, Jackson, Johnson, and soon AJ Henning. Ronnie bell just is not as good as them.
Sorry to be so straightforward. I’m not down on Bell. I’m just putting things in correct perspective.
You need to login in order to vote
I…I…just don’t understand what any of this has to do with Bell. When was Michigan better when they went away from Bell as the #1 receiver? Against Notre Dame? When they didn’t throw the ball much (14 attempts total) in the rain and when Bell went out with a knee injury? Bell had 1 catch, Collins had 1 catch, Black had 0 catches, and Peoples-Jones had 2 catches. There’s no clear #1 in that group, especially considering that Bell missed a chunk of the game.
They were better last night because they were able to run the ball. The #1 receiver – whoever it is or should be – didn’t have anything to do with it. Sainristil’s TD catch didn’t come until garbage time.
You need to login in order to vote
So I just want to be clear, you think Bell is just as good as Black, Collins, DPJ, and Sainristil?
You need to login in order to vote
Your perspective is insane. Bell is our best receiver, or at least top 2 with Collins. The job of a receiver is to get open and catch the ball. Bell has been better at both of those things than DPJ all season. Sainristil can’t get on the field because he can’t do one or the other of those things consistently. Just because someone is a hyper athletic 5 star or has a great catch in garbage time it doesn’t anoint them as a great receiver.
You need to login in order to vote
So when McGrone and Haskins got playing time, and showed they are better than the players they were in for, it was wrong, and the players they replaced, Gill and Christian Turner/Tru Wilson should be playing instead?
And now that Sainristil got playing time, and showed that he is better than Bell, it is wrong, and he should go back to the bench?
And Bell is better than DPJ and Collins?
You need to login in order to vote
“And now that Sainristil got playing time, and showed that he is better than Bell, it is wrong, and he should go back to the bench?”
I think you’re reaching a conclusion that not everyone else is reaching. Not everyone looks at that game and sees that Sainristil is automatically better than Michigan’s leading receiver. Sainristil caught 3 passes and dropped 1; his touchdown was a garbage-time 26-yard catch against backups when it was already 38-7 Michigan.
It doesn’t mean Sainristil is bad or anything. It’s just kind of an odd conclusion at this point.
You need to login in order to vote
Has Bell dropped any?
Bell looks as athletic to you as Sainristil?
What I saw from Sainristil is the makings of a superstar.
You need to login in order to vote
I think many people are caught up in an emotional reaction to the email that was sent to Ronnie Bell, and are in protection mode of him when talking about him.
I can understand why that is happening.
Maybe we should wait 3 or 4 weeks to talk about him again. We’ll all probably have a more objective view on things then.
You need to login in order to vote
I’m not known for having emotional reactions.
Ronnie Bell is Michigan’s leading receiver. Saying he should be benched for a guy with 5 career catches – 3 of them in garbage time – doesn’t make any sense to me. Obviously, you feel differently, which is your prerogative, but you’re not going to convince me otherwise based on what we’ve seen so far.
You need to login in order to vote
You said this:
“Let’s see more of this guy on offense…Ronnie Bell. Maybe this is an emotional reaction to the backlash Bell received”
https://touch-the-banner.com/michigan-vs-penn-state-awards-8/
Haskins was put in over Turner and Wilson. Now, Sainristil has to be put in over Bell. It’s not a tough thing to see.
You need to login in order to vote
Yeah…I disagree.
You need to login in order to vote
And BTW, Bell has a lot of drops. I can’t see why you’re so impressed with him. He has the most yards and catches is why? Like I said, now that the team has gone away from throwing to him so much they look much better.
There is something wrong that both DPJ and Collins are on such a low productivity level. It’s not their fault.
But it looks like the offense has headed in the direction of getting the better players involved. Which includes Haskins and Sainristil, and probably Jackson too. And starting last week DPJ and Collins are getting targeted more. WRs weren’t used a lot klast night in the rain. But still, Collins and DPJ made very cool catches–that’s right, isn’t it?
You need to login in order to vote
“Like I said, now that the team has gone away from throwing to him so much they look much better.”
I just can’t even tell what you’re talking about. “Now that the team has gone away from throwing to him” is from what evidence? Are you just talking about the Notre Dame game? They didn’t throw to anyone! They ran for 300 yards! He had 5 catches the previous week, as opposed to Collins’s 1 and Peoples-Jones’s 2.
Yes, if the team can run for 300+ yards every week, the offense will look better. It has nothing to do with Bell, Peoples-Jones, Collins, Sainristil, etc.
You need to login in order to vote
Bell only started, and got as much playing time as he did, because of injury to better players. He is likely the tertiary target in most plays he is in.
Sainristil is very, very likely going to be getting more targets. I would start him immediately. He is a 1st string talent. He could become a superstar.
You don’t agree. We don’t have to agree. So what if we don’t. It isn’t necessary we do agree.
I am very excited about Sainristil. He plays like what I thought WR play with ‘speed in space’ is supposed to look like. The way Jim Harbaugh talked about him in the press conference after the game shows that he’s excited about him too.
I think he is going to add real excitement to every Michigan game.
We don’t have to agree.
We’re starting to just go in circles now, which means we’ve said everything we have to say about the topic, and haven’t come across a point we can agree on.
So can we just leave it at this?
You need to login in order to vote
Whether you like it or not, a lot of your “conclusions” are based on opinion or misinformation.
If Bell only started or got as much playing time as he did due to “injury to better players,” why was he still leading the team in receiving in the games even when the injured guy you’re referencing (Donovan Peoples-Jones) returned to health?
You’ve also stated that the offense improved when they stopped throwing to Bell so much, which I have shown to be incorrect or, at the very least, misleading (i.e. they didn’t throw the ball against Notre Dame very much, period).
We’re not disagreeing on those topics, because you’re just flat-out incorrect.
What we can disagree on is whether Sainristil should shoot to #1 on the depth chart (sending Bell to the bench) or not. That’s opinion, and you’re entitled to yours. I don’t agree with that. And no, we don’t have to agree here.
You need to login in order to vote
Sainristil would not have to shoot to #1 to pass Ronnie Bell. He would be at #3 to do that.
I think you’re being emotional, and not logical and rational, about Ronnie Bell.
You need to login in order to vote
Nope. Just the facts for me. Bell is #1 because he’s #1 in targets, #1 in receptions, and #1 in yards. He’s Michigan’s #1 receiver. Period.
“Emotional, not logical” is the person saying the guy leading the team in receiving is the #3 receiver.
You need to login in order to vote
I haven’t been able to pin you down on an answer. You are saying Ronnie Bell is a better WR than both Nico Collins and DPJ? You haven’t answered that yet.
How about if I say it this way: if you needed a WR on your team, and you could take one of the 3, Collins, DPJ, and Bell, which would you take?
Or this way: if you were an NFL GM, and you needed to draft a WR, and you could only take one of the 3, Collins, DPJ, and Bell, which would you draft?
Or this way: if you asked Jim Harbaugh if he had to let 2 of the 3 WRs go, and could only keep 1, would he say he’d let Collins and DPJ go, and keep Bell?
You need to login in order to vote
Who is the most talented WR, who has the most NFL potential, who is the most valuable to his college team, who has produced the most are all slightly different things.
A lot of them are subjective but the fact that Bell leads the team in yards is not. He’s done that because he’s gotten open, earned the trust of his QB, and stayed healthy up until the last game. The results speak for themselves. He’s a peer amongst very good players.
In most cases it’s probably the same guy who is all those things but Michigan has collection of WRs that are all very good in slightly different ways. Collins seems to have the best ball skills and is tall but doesn’t get open all that often. DPJ is a super athlete but doesn’t look to have natural “soft skills” it takes to be an elite WR. Bell does possess those skills and he’s quick and tough. Black is good at everything but excels in no one area. Sainristil and Jackson are small and athletic but are freshman – we need to learn more about them before passing judgement. It’s normal for freshman WR to take a minute to get up to speed.
I’d be happy to see a bit more of Sainristil but it’s not great tragedy or missed opportunity to see a freshman wait his turn behind good players like Bell, Collins, and DPJ.
You need to login in order to vote
I see Mike Sainristil was the starting slot yesterday.
You need to login in order to vote
I see Mike Sainristil had 0 catches.
You need to login in order to vote
Also, looking over PFF’s grades, Sainristil was the second-worst player on offense, and graded out better than only Dylan McCaffrey.
You need to login in order to vote
Some people may be “caught up” in giving credit to the most productive receiver on the team, before and after the PSU game.
I’m a little surprised at the blowback you’re getting because people do this kind of thing all the time with garbage time production and spring hype and “eye tests”. But the blowback is warranted.
The coaches aren’t always right but they usually are. Bell beat out Sainristil and has outproduced him. Caching a couple balls after the game is already decided doesn’t change anything. Bell gets open, he produces YAC, and he’s been mostly reliable.
It’s time to move beyond the recruiting rankings for Bell. Sainristil wasn’t much better anyway. If you recall most schools wanted him as a DB which may have some relationship to the purported issue with drops.
He’ll get his chance soon enough.
You need to login in order to vote
I have to chuckle at this. 17’s argument about the backups being better than the starters based on flimsy evidence and conjecture – not the first time – though usually it’s coming for RBs or QBs…
You need to login in order to vote
I already answered your question when I wrote “Bell is our best receiver, or at least top 2 with Collins”. Yes, Ronnie Bell is playing better ball than DPJ is right now.
In your example, Haskins and McGrone are “better” because they are outproducing the previous starters. Bell is the McGrone in your example, not the Gil. He and Collins are outproducing all the other receivers.
You need to login in order to vote
So just to be clear, you are saying Ronnie Bell is a better WR than Nico Collins and Donovan Peoples-Jones?
You need to login in order to vote
I have to think you are just trolling at this point, because I’ve answered that question twice already, and I couldn’t have been any more clear than I was.
You need to login in order to vote
You didn’t answer my question. But that’s good enough, I guess.
You think, right now, Ronnie Bell is better than DPJ.
Unbelievable.
You really think Ronnie Bell could have caught that TD pass that DPJ caught?
You need to login in order to vote
McGrone is just better than Gil.
Bell is not better than DPJ.
Ah the internet.
You need to login in order to vote
McGrone replaced Ross when Ross got hurt. Glasgow replaced Gil when he changed positions and beat him out.
You need to login in order to vote
I think Bell has earned more credit and respect than this. He’s a good player with athleticism and instincts. He could be an all-conference player next year.
The big WRs are a bit overrated if you ask me. Collins doesn’t get open enough. DPJ doesn’t seem like a natural receiver. Black is just a solid all-around WR but not exceptional at anything. They’ve all got talent and are good players, but Bell being in this conversation is partially on him and partially on them just not quite being at the KJ Hamler level of playmaking.
You need to login in order to vote
How did the interior defensive line do? (I didn’t get to see the game.)
You need to login in order to vote
A nice game to win, but unfortunately, it doesn’t really alter our prospects for the remainder of the season. We’re still looking at 9-3 and a third place division finish at best, and another meh bowl game.
But hey, NEXT year will be different.
You need to login in order to vote
Yeesh. You have to love the rampant negativity even after a 45-14 blowout win over a top-10-ranked rival.
You need to login in order to vote
If you choose to call an unpleasant truth “rampant negativity”, that’s your perogative. But don’t complain because I said something you don’t want to hear, but can’t dispute. If you want to wait until Monday, or even next Friday to get back to reality, fine. I’m choosing to do it now.
You need to login in order to vote
There’s no “unpleasant truth” in “Hey, NEXT year will be different.” It’s just your sarcastic negativity shining through.
You’re a very negative fan, and I’m not the first to make that observation. THAT is a truth.
You need to login in order to vote
The unpleasant truth was “it doesn’t really alter our prospects for the remainder of the season. We’re still looking at 9-3 and a third place division finish at best, and another meh bowl game.”
You knew that perfectly well, but nice try at deflection. Now feel free to dispute that.
You need to login in order to vote
My comment went right over your head.
The negativity was exactly what I said it was. There’s nothing to deflect. You took a swing and whiffed.
You need to login in order to vote
As I said, you deflected and ignored my point…twice. Everyone with a brain reading this knows that. You didn’t even try to dispute what I said, for obvious reasons.
You need to login in order to vote
In some ways 9-3 and 8-4 are the same but there’s a lot of people who like to mention overall record at every opportunity.
Every win counts. Beating a top 10 ranked team when surrounded by negativity counts a little more than beating Rutgers or Illinois.
You need to login in order to vote
Sure this win counts. Who said it didn’t? The point is that our very likely ceiling before beating ND was 9-3, and it still is. It may be more likely now that we’ll get to 9-3 instead of 8-4, but our chances of doing better than 9-3, or having any prospects in the Big Ten haven’t really improved as a result of yesterday.
You need to login in order to vote
The guy that wrote “it doesn’t really alter our prospects for the remainder of the season. We’re still looking at 9-3 ”
If they lost they’d be 5-3 with a 4-0 finish not very likely. It would have been impossible to do better than 9-3.
Since they won they are 6-2 with a 3-1 finish being reasonably likely. It is infinitely more likely they can do better than 9-3 than if they had lost.
The win raises the floor. A loss would have lowered the ceiling.
It’s a big win. Would trade it for a win against PSU in a heartbeat but that’s not relevant.
You are talking nonsense because you want to be negative without just saying what you’re really saying which is “we still aren’t alabama” over and over again. We could win a national title and I think you’d still saying something like “good start but still not as many rings as Saban”.
Some Michigan fans enjoy Michigan football. Some might ask themselves if they can’t enjoy a win against a top 10 team are they even a fan?
You need to login in order to vote
You’re lying about what I said. Again. Here’s what I said:
“it doesn’t really alter our prospects for the remainder of the season. We’re still looking at 9-3 and a third place division finish AT BEST and another meh bowl game.”
And this is just plain stupid: “It is infinitely more likely they can do better than 9-3 than if they had lost.” Winning this game made it more likely that we will get TO 9-3, exactly as I said. But to do BETTER than 9-3 requires beating Ohio State. This win doesn’t affect those chances at all.
You need to login in order to vote
Michigan could not have done better than 9-3 if they lost. This is a fact.
You need to login in order to vote
A win doesn’t change the ceiling of the team. Isn’t that always true?
Is this really your point?
“We’re still looking at 9-3” was the first part of the sentence. That’s not true if we lost. The second part is “and 3rd place division finish at best” is likely but not true if you’re talking about ceiling. The 3rd part is meh bowl game – which is also likely but we knew that a while ago. For M to do better than a meh bowl game they had to beat ND. Now that is possible. It wasn’t if they lost.
So “our prospects for the season” changed a lot. The difference between a win and a loss is significant. It doesn’t undo the previous losses but that’s not a point worth making.
You need to login in order to vote
We were headed for a meh bowl game and we still are. We were headed for a third place division finish and we still are. The ONLY thing beating Notre Dame did was make it more likely that we’d get to (yet another) 9-3 record.
Cold hard fact is that, even if we beat OSU, our chances of winning the division are virtually zero, irrespective of what we did against ND. We came into the PSU game utterly unprepared, and nuked what was left of our season by halftime.
You need to login in order to vote
stop being negative
You need to login in order to vote
Yes you are right it is a non-conference game. We knew that Friday.
You need to login in order to vote
At some point you may acknowledge that 9-3 isn’t a tragedy. Rather, it’s a baseline of success for Michigan when things are going well. When things are not going well we have done much worse – under every coach.
Oosterbaan, Elliot, Hoke, Schembechler, Carr, and Rodriguez. Moeller’s the only one who hasn’t strayed far below the 9-3 bar and in his 5 seasons he had 10, 9, 9, 8 and 8 win years.
Harbaugh getting to 9 or 10 wins every year is a success. Michigan is back to being a top 10-15 program year in year out. Harbaugh did that.
Yes, Michigan needs to beat OSU at some point. We all get that. No we are not Alabama. We all get that too. They are entitled to neither.
You need to login in order to vote
At some point you may acknowledge that something can be a disappointment without being a “tragedy”, as you hyperbolic straw-manning refers to it. Harbaugh still going 9-3 every year, losing to Ohio State every year and failing to even win the division every year is a disappointment. It’s not as if Ohio State is this invincible juggernaut that we can only expect to beat once a century. Both Penn State and Michigan State have somehow managed to win Big Ten championships since Harbaugh has been here.
Oh, and by the way, comparing win totals for coaches who played 10 game seasons to coaches who play 12 game seasons is kinda dumb. And dishonest. But I guess that’s what you have to do to convince yourself that you’re right.
You need to login in order to vote
We can do the same thing for losses.
Moeller lost 4 games in shorter seasons multiple times. Bo went through a 6 year run from 1979 to 1984 where he lost 4, 2, 3,4, 3, 6.
In a shorter season, playing an easier schedule, without ties, these are worse seasons than 9-3.
Joe Klatt is absolutely right, fans want Harbaugh to be better than ever at Michigan at the same time that Ohio State is stronger than ever.
OSU is not unbeatable but they are very hard to beat. Since Meyer arrived, Franklin is 1-4, Dantonio 2-6, Harbaugh 0-4.
You need to login in order to vote
Our “prospects for the season” are altered for the positive. If we had lost to Notre Dame I suspect, based on historical precedent, you would have cataloged that in detail.
You need to login in order to vote
I’m still trying decipher your comment and how it relates to the interior defensive line play. 🙂
You need to login in order to vote
Don, I thought Kemp played quite well. I saw him stand up reasonably well to at least two doubles, and he pushed the pocket. Dwumfour, in my opinion, seemed more disciplined in this game, shooting straight upfield less often (perhaps due to weather creating less passing threat), but he had Book on the run some. Hutch, Danna and Paye (in that order) had nice games, especially on how they played outside runs (which McGrone cleaned up with incredible efficiency).
You need to login in order to vote
To answer your question: they played well. The numbers may not show it, but the DL was dominating the Notre Dame OL. A big change since the Wisconsin game when Jonathon Taylor was running 20+ yards up the gut. Kudos to Shaun Nua and Don Brown
You need to login in order to vote
Where did this team come from? Reminded me of the old days when a Rick Leach led team would just pound the ball at you and the defense would stop you cold.
Great win for Michigan!
@ WCB: agree it probably puts Michigan at 9-3 as MSU is looking more & more like a W and then if Michigan can win their bowl game, the usual 3rd place East finish at 10-3……… it doesn’t hurt at all for Recruiting.
Next year willl be very tough as Michigan’s tough games are on the road and well we all know Harbaugh’s record in tough road games……..
(Assuming Harbaugh is coaching at Michigan for 2020)
INTJohn
You need to login in order to vote
Well, next year we’ll have a new QB, and will have lost most of our Oline and receivers, so there will be “transition costs”. There are always “transition costs”, as wise folk here have declared. So better look ahead to 2021 as Harbaugh’s big breakout year.
You need to login in order to vote
Most people are talking about coaching when they refer to transition costs. We could still have that next year but for now things look optimistic on that front.
You need to login in order to vote
There are transition costs every year unless you are Alabama OSU Etc and can replace 5 stars with 5 stars. Unless UM becomes a top 5 recruiting team every year there will be transition costs.
You need to login in order to vote
I would distinguish between player turnover and coaching transition. It’s not the same thing. We fans spend A LOT of time thinking and talking about players but we saw this year (when basically everyone was back on O) how much the influence of coaching can wash that away.
The offensive personnel has looked confused, unsure, indecisive, even incompetent. You’ve heard their character and will get questioned.
It feels like they are starting to get it now.
Even with a new QB and new starters at half the positions I wouldn’t expect to see a repeat of the early season confusion if Harbaugh, Gattis, Warriner and company all return in 2020.
You need to login in order to vote
This is on the high side of plausible logic. System schools without great coaching turnover yet normal roster transition seem to be a consistent success; evidence Wisconsin and Iowa.
You need to login in order to vote
Yeah when Patterson threw that lateral left handed my knee jerk was here we go. Things we going good, but we all know the wheels HAVE to fall off, they do every game. Thankfully I was wrong, but Shea always has at least 1 bonehead play in his pocket for every game it seems like.
Hey Thunder, when you do your see more/less of these guys, I’m casting my vote of DPJ on punt returns. My God can he just make a fair catch every once in awhile? How many yards did he give up in the punt return game.
You need to login in order to vote
Sorry, but you and I are on completely opposite ends there. The problem I have with him was when he ran up and dove on the short punt, which could have very easily squirted out and been recovered by Notre Dame, just like what happened when Jonathan Jones from ND tried to corral the blocked punt.
In a monsoon like that, I don’t want my punt returner fielding punts. There’s too big of a risk of a turnover.
You need to login in order to vote
Thunder,
Yeah, I didn’t like that either. He’s either too aggressive or too passive. Man I was begging for just a fair catch. Just come up and catch the ball. I get the weather wasn’t the best and he didn’t want to have a punt go over his head, but after a while you have to figure out that the ND punter was having issues too. Either way I hold my breath until every punt is over.
You need to login in order to vote
Maybe we were spoiled by Peppers but I too am not impressed with DPJ punt returns. Makes me squirm and he gives away yards far too often also. I know he has talent as a returner but I’m not sure it all nets out.
You need to login in order to vote
Dude I hold my breath on every punt. Just HOPING something bad doesn’t happen. To the point I don’t even care for a big return, just no turnover!
You need to login in order to vote
The thing about DPJ is he’s the most talented person on the field, on both teams, when a punt is happening. He can outdo anyone around him on the other team. So if he sees any kind of daylight for a return, even if the ball is bouncing around, he can grab it and make some yards, possibly even a TD. He is an explosive play waiting to happen. He will probably always have that approach of being around the ball until something happens that shows he shouldn’t do it.
You need to login in order to vote
Hats off to the program! Great win! I didn’t expect it! Great job, everybody!
You need to login in order to vote
Exactly what the team needed. While a Notre Dame certainly didn’t look like the no 8 team in the country, a lot of that was due to a great effort by the D and a run offense that has been on the rise for the last 3 weeks. Pressure was good but either the coverage or schemes certainly resulted in a few of those sacks – there were few plays where Book had his first read and didn’t have to look away. Thought this was a much better match up for UM since ND didn’t really have the speed WRs to take advantage of the mismatch like PSU could. Also impressed by the Run D which completely made NDlook one dimensional. Maybe it was an off night but ND is a pretty solid OL. Eichenberg Kramer and Hainsey are all pro prospects and they could do nothing to open up run room – Hainsey was even reduced to grabbing Hutchinson by the end. I also really like that JH kept the foot on throat and kept throwing/scoring even late in the 4th when the game had been decided. Mentally UM just needed to thump a good team and the piling up points helps reinforce that they are a very good team. I think this is a dangerous squad that is beginning to find their footing and believe in themselves. Should hang 40+ on Maryland next week and then beat the corpse of MSU who may not even have enough bodies to field a team at the rate they are hitting the transfer portal. I think OSU is still a long shot but I think it’s going to be a very tight game.
You need to login in order to vote
Great game. I hope everyone who watched could enjoy it. I think some of the improvement the offense has been hinting at over the last month really came out these last 6 quarters. Is this the top 10 unit we might have hoped for? Of course not – but they’re also not the bumbling idiots we saw in the first few games. Transition costs are starting to dissipate.
We do have to acknowledge that Michigan got a little lucky here. The weather played to their advantage. ND fumbled and muffed early. A fairly obvious PI went uncalled on ND’s first drive. But fortunate start aside, Michigan went on to woop em.
That’s mostly on the defense. Paye and Hutchinson are warriors. Kemp is good, not just a plugger. The LBs were flying around. I really don’t see how Josh Ross gets his job back right now. It’s not going to happen but it’d be nice if he could red-shirt. The secondary has talent. This isn’t a 2016 caliber defense but it’s better than what I expected coming into the year.
Put another one in the RBs don’t matter pile. Haskins and Charbonnet look like equals and then Wilson and Turner come in and produce the same. ND’s collection of backs also clustered around the same production, thankfully much lower. I do enjoy Haskins physical style of running but it seems like it’ll get him dinged at some point. Viva la rotacion. Is RB a problem? Not even a bit.
Patterson played well. He’s pretty good I think. Despite all the complaining.
You need to login in order to vote
3 very winnable games headed into OSU. None are cupcakes – on the road or against a heated rival – but all are winnable.
The season will come down to OSU. I hope they’re undefeated and wooping everyone headed into it. If we keep making progress we’ll have a puncher’s chance. Glad it’s in Ann Arbor.
You need to login in order to vote
Exactly what the team needed. While a Notre Dame certainly didn’t look like the no 8 team in the country, a lot of that was due to a great effort by the D and a run offense that has been on the rise for the last 3 weeks. Pressure was good but either the coverage or schemes certainly resulted in a few of those sacks – there were few plays where Book had his first read and didn’t have to look away. Thought this was a much better match up for UM since ND didn’t really have the speed WRs to take advantage of the mismatch like PSU could. Also impressed by the Run D which completely made NDlook one dimensional. Maybe it was an off night but ND is a pretty solid OL. Eichenberg Kramer and Hainsey are all pro prospects and they could do nothing to open up run room – Hainsey was even reduced to grabbing Hutchinson by the end. I also really like that JH kept the foot on throat and kept throwing/scoring even late in the 4th when the game had been decided. Mentally UM just needed to thump a good team and the piling up points helps reinforce that they are a very good team. I think this is a dangerous squad that is beginning to find their footing and believe in themselves. Should hang 40+ on Maryland next week and then beat the corpse of MSU who may not even have enough bodies to field a team at the rate they are hitting the transfer portal. I think OSU is still a long shot but I think it’s going to be a very tight game.
You need to login in order to vote
Exactly what the team needed. While a Notre Dame certainly didn’t look like the no 8 team in the country, a lot of that was due to a great effort by the D and a run offense that has been on the rise for the last 3 weeks. Pressure was good but either the coverage or schemes certainly resulted in a few of those sacks – there were few plays where Book had his first read and didn’t have to look away. Thought this was a much better match up for UM since ND didn’t really have the speed WRs to take advantage of the mismatch like PSU could. Also impressed by the Run D which completely made NDlook one dimensional. Maybe it was an off night but ND is a pretty solid OL. Eichenberg Kramer and Hainsey are all pro prospects and they could do nothing to open up run room – Hainsey was even reduced to grabbing Hutchinson by the end. I also really like that JH kept the foot on throat and kept throwing/scoring even late in the 4th when the game had been decided. Mentally UM just needed to thump a good team and the piling up points helps reinforce that they are a very good team. I think this is a dangerous squad that is beginning to find their footing and believe in themselves. Should hang 40+ on Maryland next week and then beat the corpse of MSU who may not even have enough bodies to field a team at the rate they are hitting the transfer portal. I think OSU is still a long shot but I think it’s going to be a very tight game.
You need to login in order to vote
Is there a reason we’re not allowed to bask in the afterglow of victory over ND?
Is there some rule that says we can’t enjoy the moment?
You need to login in order to vote
Maybe it is just me, but I think Gattis has actually gotten better at playcalling. Personally, I think his playcalling up until the second half of the Penn State game was abysmal. Seems he is developing as well, which is a good sign.
You need to login in order to vote
Everyone looks better. The OL. Patterson. The RBs. The coaches. etc.
Each OC has struggled early in his first year. Every Harbaugh team has improved offensively mid-season.
The question now — is this it? OR Can they keep the improvement going through to the end of the year?
Michigan now ranks 41st in S&P offense. Still a downgrade from last year but trending in the right direction for this year.
You need to login in order to vote
I think Gattis has improved over the past few weeks. Moving to the sideline seems to have helped. I did not like his play calling against PSU, especially the direct snaps to Charbonnet.
You need to login in order to vote
Agreed. I think he over-complicated his playcalling, which, in turn, was disastrous for the offense. I like when they diversify offensive sets, but sometimes it feels like he is trying to do too much. Shea has been most effective with these short pass plays that keep the offense moving. Yeah, it is not exactly exciting football, but if something works…stick to it.
Also, is it just me, or is the right side of the offensive line really improving! They did a great job against Penn State, which is why I was shocked to see Gattis try three run plays to the left at one of the goal line sets. Mayfield still makes some mistakes here and there, but he is holding his own.
You need to login in order to vote
How much did getting mckeon back help the run blocking? I didn’t pay close attention.
You need to login in order to vote
I still need to re-watch the game, but that being said…
This was the first game where I thought the OL looked like a) it was pissed off; and b) they actually knew what each other were doing. This was also the first time where I thought they looked good pulling. I thought the RBs were patient, found the holes, and consistently made tough runs after contact.
The DL and LBs looked focused and appeared to be playing and not thinking. For the most part it was a thing of beauty. Now, did the perceived lack of respect for ND throwing the ball in the monsoon have something to do with that? Well, if it did, ND certainly didn’t take similar advantage when M had the ball on offense.
The CBs I thought had the worst game on the D side of the ball, but it wasn’t atrocious. In some instances they were in place to make a play and just didn’t. The TD pass over 31 in the endzone had me screaming turn around, the WR has stopped, just turn around and catch the ball. Nice play by 24 to deflect a pass. Like I said the CBs weren’t horrible by any means, just had the most room to improve I thought.
All and all a real solid game, but after the joy I still found myself wondering, “is the passing game going to get there”. Yes it was better than throwing the ball 9,000 times in similar conditions against MSU a few years ago, but the passing still didn’t look formidable. Was it just the weather? Stay tuned I guess.
You need to login in order to vote
Gray did not have a great game, it’s true. He was getting poor size matchups, and still needs experience in looking back for the ball and keeping his coverage. That will hopefully come by next year.
You need to login in order to vote
Chase Claypool is 6’4″. Every corner is going to have a poor size matchup against him. Gray is actually Michigan’s best size matchup for Claypool.
You need to login in order to vote
And for the record I didn’t mean to disparage #31, I like the way he plays for the most part, and yeah that WR is one hell of a match up for a DB. That being said, and never having been a player/coach, I don’t understand why when you’re running towards a guy that has stopped, and who has no where to go further (end zone sideline/end line) why you don’t as you’re nearing him turn to look for the ball. To me that’s some combination of coaching/playing, and I’m not sure the %. Again, I think he’s a good young player who will get better.
You need to login in order to vote
I like ND’s receivers, they are a difficult match-up for most teams. In general, however, the corners and safeties have been the biggest disappointment. I don’t know if it is due to the defensive play calling or the fact they were over-hyped….I thought they would be the best part of the defense.
You need to login in order to vote
I strongly disagree with the idea that the CBs have been disappointing. Thomas is quietly having an all-B1G season, and Lavert Hill continues to be good. If Gray (who we knew would be a trouble spot) learns to get his head around as mentioned, he’ll be fine.
You need to login in order to vote
I agree. The corners have been pretty good, especially since it was a real question if Thomas would be available before the season started. He’s lived up to the hype. Gray also has been decent for a guy playing for the first time.
They are also being asked to execute zone and man coverage more than ever.
Even the times they’ve been beat by WRs it’s mostly been perfect throws or blown safety coverage. The CBs haven’t been perfect but they’ve been good.
There’s real concern about the future but right now CB continues to be a strong point.
You need to login in order to vote
Exactly what the team needed. While a Notre Dame certainly didn’t look like the no 8 team in the country, a lot of that was due to a great effort by the D and a run offense that has been on the rise for the last 3 weeks. Pressure was good but either the coverage or schemes certainly resulted in a few of those sacks – there were few plays where Book had his first read and didn’t have to look away. Thought this was a much better match up for UM since ND didn’t really have the speed WRs to take advantage of the mismatch like PSU could. Also impressed by the Run D which completely made NDlook one dimensional. Maybe it was an off night but ND is a pretty solid OL. Eichenberg Kramer and Hainsey are all pro prospects and they could do nothing to open up run room – Hainsey was even reduced to grabbing Hutchinson by the end. I also really like that JH kept the foot on throat and kept throwing/scoring even late in the 4th when the game had been decided. Mentally UM just needed to thump a good team and the piling up points helps reinforce that they are a good team. I think this is a dangerous squad that is beginning to find their footing and believe in themselves. Should hang 40+ on Maryland next week and then beat the corpse of MSU who may not even have enough bodies to field a team at the rate they are hitting the transfer portal. I think OSU is still tough but I think it’s going to be a tight game.
You need to login in order to vote
Exactly what the team needed. While a Notre Dame certainly didn’t look like the no 8 team in the country, a lot of that was due to a great effort by the D and a run offense that has been on the rise for the last 3 weeks. Pressure was good but either the coverage or schemes certainly resulted in a few of those sacks – there were few plays where Book had his first read and didn’t have to look away. Thought this was a much better match up for UM since ND didn’t really have the speed WRs to take advantage of the mismatch like PSU could. Also impressed by the Run D which completely made NDlook one dimensional. Maybe it was an off night but ND is a pretty solid OL. Eichenberg Kramer and Hainsey are all pro prospects and they could do nothing to open up run room – Hainsey was even reduced to grabbing Hutchinson by the end. I also really like that JH kept the foot on throat and kept throwing/scoring even late in the 4th when the game had been decided. Mentally UM just needed to thump a good team and the piling up points helps reinforce that they are a good team. I think this is a dangerous squad that is beginning to find their footing and believe in themselves. Should hang 40+ on Maryland next week and then beat the corpse of MSU who may not even have enough bodies to field a team at the rate they are hitting the transfer portal. I think OSU is still a long shot but I think it’s going to be a tight game.
You need to login in order to vote
I thoroughly enjoyed this major league beat down on Notre Dame as it was only a wild hope that Michigan would absolutely just kick their ass. I see that Michigan & them have scheduled a couple more games in 2033 & 34. I’ll be 80ish by then if I’m still alive and its an ole man’s football joy that ND can burn from this Wolverine delivered ass kikin’ for the next 14 years………
Go Blue!………..INTJohn
You need to login in order to vote
“We’re bringing back some stuff that worked last year, watching previous games,” senior right guard Michael Onwenu said. “It’s important to bring that back and do what worked, instead of (trying) everything else.”
Transition costs. Not optimally managed. Could and should have thought to do this in the offseason.
You need to login in order to vote
Its Monday morn. yeah it was a great win. I’ll remember it for the next 15 years as the Finale to the ND series till ’33 BUT for now its time to move on.
This game does not make the season anymore than Pitt beating Clemson @ Clemson in ’16 or Iowa blowing out OSU, or Purdue blowing out also, OSU.
Michigan’s season still remains one of inconsistency; which is ‘the real’ Michigan? the one that should’ve lost to Army? That looked like bumbling incompetents against Wisconsin, Ill and PSU? Or the team that just destroyed Notre Dame? One game does not define a team or a season as Iowa & Purdue & Pitt, above, all had big wins against great teams but they themselves were mediocre at best; and need I mention K State vs OK this past weekend. too?
Is the ND game simply an aberation to this otherwise, so far, completely disappointing season or has Michigan finally become a great team?
There will be no East Divy title……..
There will be no B10 Chgampionship………
There will be no Playoffs………
Given the talent & expereince on this ’19 team & its preseason expectations, Michigan needs to win out in order to put anykind of positive definition to the 2019 Season.The best consolation to all of this (without looking past Maryland & Indiana) is wins against ND, MSU & OSU. Michigan is only 1/3 of the way there.
As I See It……….INTJohn.
You need to login in order to vote
Pretty much agree. All the talk of Michigan having “turned the corner” is fairly silly, not to mention premature. Of course, even if they have, it’s a bit too late.
I’ll wait to see how Harbaugh does against Dantonio, a guy who has outcoached him every year.
You need to login in order to vote
By what logic has Dantonio outcoached Harbaugh every year?
You need to login in order to vote
The logic that recognizes that winning with far superior talent doesn’t mean you weren’t outcoached.
You need to login in order to vote
Does that apply for Urban Meyer?
You need to login in order to vote
Michigan has had inferior talent to OSU every year.
In 2015 (AKA YEAR ZERO) down 4 at the half before OSU’s talent took over in the second.
In 2016 double OT and dubious officiating.
In 2017 the talent difference at QB alone was something else and yet there is Michigan down 4 points, with the ball and 2:36 left on the clock.
In 2018 down 5 at the half before talent took over.
By your logic I think it’s fair to say Harbaugh has outcoached Urban Meyer at least a few times to make close games despite a talent disadvantage.
Urban Meyer is elite! An our guy has been beating him. You heard it via WCB, the Michigan Football Optimist-King.
You need to login in order to vote
I agree here to some extent and maybe more than what I’m conscious of. I think IF Harbaugh in at least 3 of these games against Meyer has equal talent then Michigan wins.
BUT that is Thee bottom line at the college level: recruiting the best talent will make or break an HC at the college level. Harbaugh lost his first big time recruiting battle to Urban with Weber and Jimmy has been working from behind ever since.
And yes, historically Michigan has almost always had inferior talent top to bottom when compared to OSU but that did not stop Bo, Moeller or Carr from often winning against OSU.
On a more particular level, I’m not on board with most that Michigan lost to OSU in ’16 because of officiating in OT, i.e The Spot but rather Michigan lost because of Turnovers – 3 of them all by Sp8; a net swing of 21 points that enabled OSU to get back in the game after trailing by double digits. Without those turnovers Michigan prolly wins by around 20 points.
Was that on Harbaugh? Idk, At the time I still believed that Harbaugh was the Great QB Guru and maybe he did the best with Sp8 that he could, Idk.
One can have the best Strategy in the World but if ones Tactics suck then the Strategy will probably never be realised and also if one has Great Tactics but a dumass Strategy then too, all is lost and sometimes too one can fight to a draw or even lose tactically with an opponent but still foil said opponenets Strategy……..
Obviously, I’m speaking of real world combat & battles. Some of which I had first hand expereince but college football, very simplistically, in terms of Absolutes; Strategy and/or Tactics are not much different from real combat.
If you have the best soldiers and you have the best Strategy and you have the best Tactics you most likely willl win but not necessarily. Of late, OSU has generally had all 3 when they’ve played Michigan.
Bottom line tho, a loss is a loss and Harbs has lost to OSU.
intjohn
You need to login in order to vote
Recruiting is part of coaching. Harbaugh is doing better than Dantonio. Meyer did better than Harbaugh.
It’s silly to say otherwise.
You need to login in order to vote
So are you admitting that Dantonio has outcoached Harbaugh every year? Yes or no?
You need to login in order to vote
No. Harbaugh is 2-2 against Dantonio and Dantonio is lucky it’s not 3-1. Harbaugh has the stronger program year in and year out.
You need to login in order to vote
Harbaugh has the better team. The main reason for that is – he is the better coach.
That was not true for Hoke (1-3 vs Dantonio) or Rodriguez (0-3 vs Dantonio).
You need to login in order to vote
Meyer has outcoached Harbaugh.
Fortunately he’s gone.
You need to login in order to vote
Is it inconsistency or is it a trend of improvement?
That’s an honest question. It can be hard to assess when you have such contrasts in opponent capability on top of the inherent variability of the game.
From my “eye test” I see steady improvement in the run game in particular since the first 3 games.
Rutgers was a cupcake but they did the job.
Iowa was a big test and Harbaugh claimed to be “hitting our stride”
Illinois was a paving though the fumbling issues returned.
PSU was steady but unexceptional against an elite Run D.
ND was dominant, though still some fumbling problems they didn’t hurt us.
You need to login in order to vote
Is there someway to get a clip of Spanellis(?) driving the ND Defender out of bounds and still blocking on him?
I’d love to show this to my 3rd and 4th grade youth league.
You need to login in order to vote
Try this:
https://twitter.com/ESPNCFB/status/1188292913668558848
You need to login in order to vote
DonAz
Thanx! Can’t wait to show my little guys what blocking to the echo of the whistle means.
You need to login in order to vote